I think the bickering on the board would be a much greater spectacle than the short match we can expect from a T-Rex/Giga battle. I find it interesting that Spinosaurus discussion has died out. Just when some interesting facts about the more believeable Dino were getting out too.. I gotta say.. That whole thing with the baseball bat Ceratopsian frills.. Heh, good one. If you try hard enough, you can almost imagine a Triceratops trying to bash something with it's horns.

But how would something like Styracosaurus manage this with it's one nostril horn? I can't imagine such a diversified group evolving this defensive adaptation if only Triceratops' is of any use. By the way, to the person who wondered how Spinosaurus could survive eating only fish, the fish during the early cretaceous were very big animals.

And considering they were practically defenseless for the most part, Spino and Baryonyx, along with the other members of the spinosauriade family may have had things pretty easy. A lot of food, with out the risk of being killed or seriously injured while trying to capture it. A very real danger for Giganotosaurus, T-Rex, Albertosaurus, and virtually every hunter of the time who's main diet consisted of other Dinosaurs.

Has anyone also found it strange, that only in the world of Dinosaurs, does the whole scavenger thing seem to be such a big deal? I mean, isn't every predator also at least somewhat of a scavenger? I can't think of any species of modern day predator that won't eat bits of carrion that it comes across..

Of course a Dino would gladly go for a free meal. Considering dinosaurus couldn't fly, I can't imagine any of the larger predators (especially T-Rex) making too much of a living on scavenging alone. Vultures rule the modern day world when it comes to scavenging. They are even used as compasses by lions to find carrion that they can scavenge on. Maybe the pterrosaurs of the day may have played a similar role? I don't think the gliding reptiles could have been as effective as modern day vultures though when it comes to spotting carrion.
from Usen, age 20, ?, ?, USA; August 5, 2001

Do you people realise you are arguing over a bunch of animals that have been dead for 65 million years?
I think you all need to collectively get a life.
Now, considering the most recent discoveries in Montana by Dr. Horner, the T. Rex seems poised to regain the top spot in the dino-wars. Also, it DID have a far more powerfull bite, and was likely faster than the other condenders to the throne. Recent estimates of the largest of Dr. Horners finds, place it at around 10% larger than the largest current specimen(Sue). This would put it at slightly larger than the current largest Giganto. This fact, combined with it's clear advantages in speed and bite force, make it the clear leader once again in the imaginary power strugle you all seem so eager to continue.
So you can all relax now, T.Rex is back on top.
from matt, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

Face it, you Giganotosaurus, Spinosaurus, etc. lovers

T-REX is the real deal theropod, capable of surviving another T-Rex bite. No matter how hard you wanna ignore it, bite force is a factor, especially if we're talking of 13,000 newton force here. It's unfair to compare it to a bulldog-doberman bite force.

Plus, T-Rex is more intelligent and agile (as suggested by the braincase and leg structure)

In short, T-Rex rapes them in almost every aspect.

So accept the fact! Your favorite dinos will bow down. :P

Guile - A TREX FAN and ALWAYS PROUD OF IT!
from Guile, age 19, Quezon City, Manila, Philippines; August 5, 2001

Yup! I stand corrected! That dino in the movie isn't a carnotaurus.

Carnotaurus have two horns above the eye (I checked its profile in this site)

I have to recheck the movie. I thought the horn that I saw is above the dino's eye, not above the tip of the snout, making me conclude that it's not a ceratosaurus, cuz from what I know, ceratosaurus' horn is above the tip of the snout.

Anyway, no one here has answered my question yet:

WHAT IS THE IDEAL FEMUR, TIBIA-FIBULA, METATARSUS RATIO FOR A BIPED ANIMAL FOR IT TO BE CONSIDERED A FAST RUNNER?
from Guile, age 19, Quezon City, Mega Manila, Philippines; August 5, 2001

My docudrama is under the name Dragonair, by the way.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 5, 2001

See my docudrama in the Dino Fiction page! Well, the first chapter anyway.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 5, 2001

What are u talking about guile, carnotaurus does not have a horn on it's nose. The one in JP3 is a ceratosaurus. It's not movie version of Lost World, just because the book had those doesnt mean those are the same dinosaurs.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

And being wrong just about how a ceratosaurus eyes were, is not that big of difference. And ceratosaurus only had small knobby horns above its eyes.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

On Enchanted learning, it says in black and white that a spino could kill a large sauropod. And ever if a T-rex has stronger jaws, a bulldog has stronger jaws than a doberman or a wolf, but doesn't it will win. Doberman and wolves can do more damage than a bulldog sometimes because of their longer snouts.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

Leonard, I think what you said about paleontologists say about is a bunch of bull. Many paleontologists say the spinosaurus could kill a sauropod. There's no way an animal that big could sustain itsef on fish. Many paleontologists say they fed on other dinosaurs.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

Utahraptor oweni is a dromaeosaurid about 20 feet long and 8 feet tall, with a 14 inch claw on the second toe.
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, my room, my house; August 5, 2001

Look, people, Tyrannosaur may be an advanced dinosaur, but it is not what you all are trying to make him to be. I myself was a T.rex fan once, but now I like Giganotosaurus because of what you are saying to those who DARE TO CHALLENGE THE ALMIGHTY TYRANNOSAUR. If you T.rex fans can't handle the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE, some people MIGHT ACTUALLY THINK that one dinosaur or other prehistoric creature was BETTER than TYRANNOSAURUS REX, get off this board, which I will do unless you clean up your act. That is all.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 5, 2001

Another reason to fear and loeathe the Jurassic Park Institute. Anything with a JP logo can't be educational!
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 5, 2001

Chandler and Brad,can you tell me what torvosaurus is?
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A.; August 5, 2001

Don't you t.rex fans,think you'r opinions are a tad shallow minded? For one thing,I heard the skull of triceratops,was too heavy to charge predators with. And secondly,you have to look at the way modern animals fight. A fight between t.rex and giganotosaurus would probably look like,a fight between a lion and a hyena. (correct me if I spelled hyena wrong) Hyenas are famous for their powerful jaws,yet a lion can take them out,in a single swipe!(you need to keep an open mind) With a skull as big as giganotosaurus had,I figure it could probably hold off a t.rex. (an average size t.rex atleast) The reason this situation is out of control,is because of a bunch dinosaur knockers,who want t.rex to be the best. You talk about t.rex,like it's as smart as Steven Hawking! I saw a documentary,where paleontologist held a carcharodontosaurus tooth in his hand,it was shaped like a long serrated dagger (The tooth must have been about 5-6 inches long!) Also,there i! s a myth,that t.rex was brutal. All carnivores are brutal,in their own right! Raptors disembowled their prey,with a nasty toe claw. T.rex wasn't Vlad the impaler,compared to these dinos. Anyway,defeating giganotosaurus,is easier said than done! "My dino can beat you'r dino!" Yup,thats what they all say! You aren't going to be,too popular by insulting other peoples favorite dinosaurs. Next time,be more polite. (I guess there's no need for a holey war about "my dino can beat you'r dino",is there?)
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, Isn't-real/Isreal(U.S.A.); August 5, 2001

I've been seeing the "Utahraptor oweni" references pop up all over the internet too...I don't know where they are coming from. I think it's probably because the JP Institute site erroneously uses it...maybe they were thinking _Valdoraptor oweni_??
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

"The only animal that reminds me remotely via virtue of apperance of the JP3 "Ceratosaurus" is the tyrannosaur Alioramus. If only they had made the skull a tad longer, gave it tyrannosaur arms, and made it a little bit more slender and it would have solved all our "Just what the heck is that thing?" problems."

That's a great idea! Do we even get a clear view of its arms in the movie?

"Prehaps it could be the Ceratosaur Proceratosaurus? Narr...I don't
think so..."

There's a Proceratosaurus embryo container visible in JP, so there's a good chance we could see one. Proceratosaurus may have had a nasal horn, or a midline crest something like that of Dilophosaurus. We don't know if it had brow horns, but it's closest relative Ornoitholestes did not. It could be more likely than you think.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 5, 2001

You know, I really don't care what the makers of JP3 say. They could say that Dr. Grant was supposed to be a small monkey, and they just didn't bother to make him look like one.

'Raptors are not Droameosauridae!
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 5, 2001

Utahraptor oweni? I've never heard of that species before.

I have been reading the docudramas, and they're good!
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 5, 2001

The only animal that reminds me remotely via virtue of apperance of the JP3 "Ceratosaurus" is the tyrannosaur Alioramus. If only they had made the skull a tad longer, gave it tyrannosaur arms, and made it a little bit more slender and it would have solved all our "Just what the heck is that thing?" problems. But looking through the JP3 webpages, I have to admit it was simply a badly done Ceratosaurus. Prehaps it could be the Ceratosaur Proceratosaurus? Narr...I don't think so...
from ..., age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

Sean...erm, nevermind, try to read up more on dinosaurs, maybe you'll get better...
from Paul T., age 11, Lincoln, Nebraska, USA; August 5, 2001

Honkie! You rock man! You know alot about meat-eaters, and you can draw them well too!
from Paul T., age 11, Lincoln, Nebraska, USA; August 5, 2001

Chandeler, you are cool man! You can really draw dinosaurs and you seem to know alot about them!
from Paul T., age 11, Lincoln, Nebraska, USA; August 5, 2001

Brad you're good man! You seem to know alot about dinosaurs!
from Paul T., age 11, Lincoln, Nebraska, USA; August 5, 2001

If you like the following dinosaurs:

-Acrocanthosaurus atokensis
-Spinosaurus aegyticus
-Utahraptor oweni
-Giganotosaurus carolinii,
then read all of the docudramas in The Dinosaur Story series. Im still writing The Giganotosaurus Story.

PS- CHAPTER IV OF THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY IS HERE!!

PPS- ITS COMING...
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 5, 2001

"Get Serious Jurasic parks velociraptors arent those really Utahraptors"

No, Rory. Utahraptor was larger than the JP Velociraptors. The JP Velociraptors were closer in size to a Deinonychus.

Ps-THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY-CHAPTER IV IS HERE!

Pps-It's coming....
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 5, 2001

*ssk*For those of you who want reliable information,turn to the paleontologists. Thank you.*ssk* We keep finding larger relatives of giganotosaurus. I'm not convinced,a fight between t.rex and giganotosaurus would be one sided. (and never will be) According to the people at science daily(of the discovery science channel) triceratops didn't actually charge predators,but rather wielded it's horned frill like a weapon. Computer generated models show,triceratops couldn't run very fast,thus charging wouldn't be as effective. So it probably used it's horned frill,as a sword. (I wouldn't count it out,for walking torwards a predator,and then stabbing it though.) At the end of the jurassic period,it might have been both,disease and tyrannosaurs,that contributed to the demise of A.fragilis. Unlike the allosaurids,tyrannosaurs met an untimely extinction.(Which doesn't look good on their record.)Just because giganotosaurus could beat t.rex,is no reason to have a retard attack! You t.rex fans weren't even around,at the time of the dinosaurs! So how do you know,this is the way it happened?! GET OFF MY CASE!!!!!!
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 5, 2001

Hey Honkie good pictures of your elasmosaurus ,ceratosaurus and giganotosaurus.And for you chandler,nice 3-D cryolophosaurus and I know where euplocephaulus got those pictures.Now its my turn.
from Donovan c., age 12, ?, singapore, ?; August 5, 2001

Giganotosaurus? You gotta be kidding me man! That thing is Giggy-sissy compaired to T-man!
from Damean, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

To whoever suggested this idea:

"Evidence shows horned-dinosaurs probably wielded their horned frills,like baseball bats."

Try thinking, it works.
from The, age Low, Blow, ., .; August 5, 2001

SEAN S. YOU ARE WRONG! THE HORNED DINOS DID NOT USE THEIR FRILLS LIKE A BASEBALL BAT! GO DO SOME RESEARCH AND FLY A KITE! I DIDN'T KNOW GIGANOTOSAURUS WAS SO LAME UNTIL YOU CAME ALONG AND STARTED PROMOTING IT!
from KL, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

Gigantosaurus? You got to be kidding me! I took one look at the skeleton and knew immediately it was all bark-no bite. I mean that thing was as dumb as what? A tomato? I'm no dino fan but look at T.Rex. That guy was built to kill. He looks a great tad more impressive and dangerous and will have no problem folding, spindling and otherwise hurting Gigantosaurus really badly. Gigantosaurus is certainly the loser here. And I agree, that Gigantosaurus fan is certainly making up alot of stuff and his points are mostly moot and fake, most likely a result of a desperate person who knows he's losing this one. Ha! I tell you, he isn't convincing bystanders like me!
from Lewis M., age 15, ?, ?, Canada; August 5, 2001

I can just picture it: A Giganotosaurus strutting confidently into the arena after reading some rubbish here that he is actually a match in a deathmatch against T-Rex. T-Rex has no such illusions and is carefully tracking his prey, considering all the weaknesses and strengths.

Giganotosaurus moves in, intending to use his longer jaw to his advantage, based on advice he has heard somewhere here. But T-Rex is nowhere to be seen. Giganotosaurus moves warily around, wondering where the heck T-Rex is.

Then T-Rex charges out of nowhere in one of his famous stalk-and-ambush tatics at incredible speed, rushing alongside Giganotosaurus, tearing a 200 lb chunk of meat from Giganotosaurus' upper leg. He then retreats at rapidly to acess the damage.

Giganotosaurus has seen the T-Rex the moment it broke cover, but had no time to react at all. Turning his ponderous 8-tons around, he tries to chase the retreating Tyrannosaurus but is unable to even remotely catch up, and he is limping and bleeding badly from the leg wound. But it didn't matter, T-Rex could easily outrun him even if he was in prime condition.

The bite is bad, it has removed alot of flesh, severed muscle and even cracked the femur. Just a little 4 inches more to the right, the bite would have severed a major artery in the leg, but the Giganotosaurus stands now, somewhat unsteadily, facing the T-Rex, who now has his blood dripping from its jaws.

Than the moment comes where T-Rex charges Giganotosaurus head on. Giganotosaurus intends to use his longer skull to fend T-Rex off, but T-Rex dodges one way, and then the other, and then is in range to strike. Giganotosaurus opens his jaws wide to bite the T-Rex and is shocked when the Tyrannosaurus clams it's jaws down on his upper jaw at incredible force. The skull is instantly fractured and crushed as the teeth drive through at nearly 2 tons of force at each tooth tip. In extreme pain, Giganotosaurus closes his lower jaw and bites into the lower jaw of the Tyrannosaurus, drawing blood but not coming anywhere close to doing major damage, for the main power in the bite in Giganotosaurus came from the upper jaw, via the hatchet-slam method. The lower jaw is virtually useless in this situtation and the T-Rex has badly crushed the upper jaw.

T-Rex disengages and backs off to look at the Giganotosaurus. The Giganotosaurus is truly a pathetic sight: It is missing a large chunk off the upper jaw and the front part of the skull is crushed. Giganotosaurus is now bleeding rapidly from both the wounds in the leg and the head.

T-Rex decides to end this. He stalks to the left before boring down on Giganotosaurus at an angle. Giganotosaurus' finally comes to terms with the fact his one foot skull advantage is really a silly reason to state he has any chance of winning the match and he tries to run. But as everybody knows, T-Rex is faster and catches up. He clams the jaws around Giganotosaurus' delicate-by-compairsm neck bites hard before pulling back. There is a horrible sound of cracking and rupturing neck verterbre as the T-Rex jerks back from the neck, tearing it completely. The windpipe is ripped out and blood fountains into the air as major blood vessels are torn. But the Giganotosaurus is already dead, with his spinal cord ripped apart when the T-Rex pulled back. The nearly-decapitated 8-ton animal hits the ground hard and stays there in a spreading pool of blood. T-Rex stamps a foot onto the body of Giganotosaurus, bites into the body, and pulls out a large chunk of ragged flesh and bone to feed.

To a Sean S.: Yeah right, that slightly longer skull is gonna help out alot. T-Rex will juz' bite it right off and shave it down. Chances for Giganotosaurus = No #$%$@ way to one.
from The Sean Critic (It Stinks!), age .,.,.,.,.,, The antigiganto, gigantodown, gigantosdie; August 5, 2001

Sadly, some people have been spreading untrue information about my favourite group, the ceratopsians, here. I'll now have to invalidate his claims.

No, ceratopsians did not use their horned frills like baseball bats, not only is this patently absurd, it is also impossible. Ceratopsians had a rather limited range of movement for their heads, and swinging a frill like a bat is certainly out of the question. And also, it lacks sense, why bat your predator when you can gore him with your horns? Though I think Tyrannosaurus is too popular, I will go with the Tyrannosaurus fans on this one: Giganotosaurus could not defeat Triceratops. In fact, the reason the Allosaurids went extinct up north was due to two reasons, the appearance of the Tyrannosaurs and also the emergence of fast, intelligent, and sometimes dangerous prey like the hardosaurs and ceratopsian. These animals were a far cry from what the Allosaurids were used to (large, slow and dumb prey) and they were simply outcompeted by the Tyrannosaurs. The Allosaurids were never really sucessful after the jurassic. The were too fat, dumb and slow to make it against the advanced designs fresh off the drawing board and they simply went extinct. It was the opening of a sea between the north and south that saved them from utter destruction, nothing more. Lucky

So Giganotosaurus was certainly not built to hunt ceratopsians, the ceratopsians would have been very much more deadiler, faster and intelligent than the prey it was used to and it amounts to a pitiful situtation where Giganotosaurus will be left writhing on the ground in extreme pain from a 1-meter deep stab wound to its belly. Even Tyrannosaurs have a hard time trying to crack ceratopsians, and there is absolutely no reason why Giganotosaurus, a less capable hunter, will do any better. Given than, Tyrannosaurus will win over Giganotosaurus easily in a deathmatch for one simple reason. He was superior, any dinosaur that hunts Triceratops is not to be trifled with.
from The Ceratopsian, age 13, ?, ?, ?; August 5, 2001

FIRST OF ALL THEY NOW HAVE DISCOVERD A NEW T-REX BIGGER THAN SUE, THE HOLE BODY IS NOT ALL DISOVERD BUT THEY THINK IT'S 10% LARGER AND SUE THAT WOULD BE AT LEAST 45+ FEET LONG. SO THAT WOULD PUT T-REX BACK ON TOP. THINK ABOUT THIS THE GIANT THE SPINO AND ANY OTHER BIGGER MEAT EATERS THAN T-REX IF THEY EVER FOUGHT IT COULD GO BOTH WAYS. AND I THINK T-REX COULD TAKE ANY DINO
from KOBE, age 15, SAN FRAN, CA, USA; August 4, 2001

Jurassic Park has done one thing right in all of the movies.
In the first, the lawyer died.

If the T.Rex is capable of killing off one of the world's most evil and disgusting creations, then by all means they'll kill a single, stupid, enviromentalist hippy Giganosaurus easily.
from Kenneth E. C., age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

Giganotosaurus vs T-Rex?

I'll say it's Giganotosaurus in six...pieces.
from Peter S., age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

G'day, mates! Giganotosaurus the impratically large Allosaurid here! Today we're broadcasting from inside the stomach of a Tyrannosaurus Rex! Sadly, my mate won't be here today, as she was torn to pieces by a pack of ravenous Albertosaurus. Now please observe, if you will, the digestive acid that is slowly and painfully eating through my legs....
from Giganotosaurus, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

"Evidence shows horned-dinosaurs probably wielded their horned frills,like baseball bats."

Hmm...lets add this to the nonsense and rubbish archives. Man this archive has really grown since SOMEBODY started posting here.
from Actung!, age Debunkae, Grenardern, Actung Typhun, Haltae; August 4, 2001

"Evidence shows horned-dinosaurs probably wielded their horned frills,like baseball bats."

Hmm...lets add this to the nonsense and rubbish archives. Man this archive has really gorwn since SOMEBODY started posting here.
from Actung!, age Debunkae, Grenardern, Actung Typhun, Haltae; August 4, 2001

TO A SEAN S: HORNED DINOSAURS DID NOT USE THEIR HORNS LIKE BASEBALL BATS! THEY USE IT TO GORE PREDATORS LIKE T-REX. WHO ARE THE SCIENTISTS WHO SAID THAT? THEY MUST BE THE ONES YOU MADE UP! I AM A TRICERATOPS FAN AND I HATE T-REX, BUT GIGANOTOSAURUS WILL SURELY LOSE AS HE IS SO LOUSLY THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE UP STUFF TO MAKE HIM LOOK BETTER.
from Trike, age 10, Warrenton, Virgina, USA; August 4, 2001

"What is the ideal femur, tibia-fibula, metatarsus ratio a biped animal needs for it to be considered a fast runner?"

Typically, fast runners have shorter femurs compaired to their tibia-fibulas, which can be quite long. But that is not all. We also need to look at other adaptations like the presense of shock-absorbing cartiliage and powerful upper leg muscles to determine if the animal was a fast runner.
from Lillian Tay, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

"That horned dino in JP3 is a Carnotaurus, not a Ceratosaurus.

The difference-the horn of the Carnotaurus is located above the eye.

I suggest that you guys read The Lost World book by Michael Crichton. It's way better than the movie.
In that book, Crichton portrayed them as chameleon like creatures, having extreme camouflage capabilities. I don't know where he got that idea."

No, it was neither, as Brad has said, what, 100 times? If I had to pick one genus to assign the animal to, I would pick _Ceratosaurus_, since it is closest to that. It doesn't even remotely resemble _Carnotaurus_ (which I think was in the original script for that scene, what happened to it?). _Carnotaurus_ had no nasal crest. And I'm not sure what you mean about the difference being the horn above the eyes..._Ceratosaurus_ had "horns" above its eyes too (similar to _Allosaurus_), although it is more famous for its nasal "horn."
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

I think the Utah Raptor is totaly AWESOME! I like the really firce dinsours.
from Cheryl.L., age 10, Craig, Colorado, U.S.A; August 4, 2001

sorry euoplocephulus. Im doing The Pteranodon Story next. Ill do The Carnotaurus Story after that, ok?
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 4, 2001

Get Serious Jurasic parks veloiceraptors aren't real those are Utah Raptors
from Rory S., age 12, Warrenton, Virginia, USA; August 4, 2001

"Well then, everything would be a bit silly, considering how everything we say here is based on what scientists say."

No no no, you got it wrong. The reason it looks silly is because Sean makes up the facts, and then puts them forward as being "said by scientists". In other words, he's bluffing his way through and expecting people to buy it. Unfortunately, nobody does... It's okay to qoute scientists, but it's going to make you look pretty stupid if you are going to lie about it...(yeah right, Tyrannosaurids sperading killer plauges...)

"Yeah, but why do that when you can simply run in, dodge, and break the opponent's neck? I don't see why T.rex would need this tactic."

Yeah, he could do that too. In any case, he's going to kick some serious butt with little chance of retaliation from his opponent.

"Erm... I was sasying that Leonard said that T.rex was 13 times larger than Giganotosaurus."

You must have misread his post, let me qoute him:

"...and considering T.rex caused as estimated 13 TIMES more than Giganotosaurus, unless Giganotosaurus is 13 TIMES larger than a T.rex, he's not going have an advantage in terms of time-taken-to-kill opponent. Sadly, for as far as we see for size estimates, no Giganotosaurus of any pratical size could wistand more than a single T.rex bite to virtually any part of the body without being seriously affected. Once again, size does not matter..."

Hmm, I don't think Leonard is talking about T.rexes' size at all, but rather saying that T.rex could do 13 times more damage than Giganotosaurus. (And I think that's a conservative estimate!) He must have mispelled the "an" as "as" in the first line...

"Maybe Noasaurus isn't a suitable candidate for the 'raptor after all. This is Masiakosaurus, but the maxilla looks quite similar to the Noasaurus one! Time to forget about the Noasaurus skull reconstruction I was working on. And if you ignore the forwardly-directed premaxillary teeth, the noasaurid cranium resembles that of Abelisaurus- probably because it is partly based on Abelisaurus."

Ugh...those raptors are certainly not Noasaurids...and besides, it seems the only thing the JP3 movie makers can do without screwing up is to screw up their dinosaurs. By trying to apply logic or science to their mistakes, we are exerting unnecessary stress on ourselves. Sometimes we just have to let go and say in one loud voice "Hey! You screwed up!"
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

Rapetasaurus krausei (Rogers & Forster) is another new dinosaur this summer. I think this one has been getting some media attention.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

http://dinosauricon.com/temp/Masiakasaurus_bust.jpg

Maybe Noasaurus isn't a suitable candidate for the 'raptor after all. This is Masiakosaurus, but the maxilla looks quite similar to the Noasaurus one! Time to forget about the Noasaurus skull reconstruction I was working on. And if you ignore the forwardly-directed premaxillary teeth, the noasaurid cranium resembles that of Abelisaurus- probably because it is partly based on Abelisaurus.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

Stop trying to explain the mistakes in JP??? So the scaly, high-snouted, sickle-clawed theropod is not Noasaurus? :)

But seriously, has anyone thought that those 'raptors just might be Noasaurus? I think they are.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

"and that "scientist says" statement makes the whole thing look rather silly."

Well then, everything would be a bit silly, considering how everything we say here is based on what scientists say.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 4, 2001

Torvosaurus tanneri is a large, meat-eating theropod from the American Morrison Formation. It is related to Megalosaurus.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

"Ugh...those raptors are certainly not Noasaurids...and besides, it seems the only thing the JP3 movie makers can do without screwing up is to screw up their dinosaurs."

Why not? It's certainly more likely than dromaeosaurids, IMHO.

"By trying to apply logic or science to their mistakes, we are exerting unnecessary stress on ourselves. Sometimes we just have to let go and say in one loud voice "Hey! You screwed up!""

Stress? I think it's fun!
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

"If sinraptor had a septic bite,then maybe giganotosaurus had a septic bite too! "

Once again I must repeat there is no such thing as "maybe" here. It's either you have the adaptations for a septic bite or you don't. Giganotosaurus did not. The main problem with Giganotosaurus not having a septic bite is the existence of a crank who dislike science and would rather return to a more medieval way of life. Gigantososaurus not having a septic bite is based on basic physics - the lack of adaptations in Giganotosaurus to house rotting meat and baterial. There is nothing in doubt about Giganotosaurus not having a septic bite- it's as inevitable as death, taxes, and the lunatic fringe.

Sounds familiar?

"I got my disease theory,from bakker. He says disease may have wiped out the dinosaurs. I don't think this is what caused the extinction of the dinosaurs,in general though. But I do think disease,might have had something to do,with the extinction at the end,of the jurassic period. What is that killjoy(Honkie Tong)thinking? A:he thinks everything is impossible"

Uh uh, but then if you look at the fossil record, you'll notice that the Allosaurids did not dissappear rapidly, but instead over a period of time, and it was marked with a convergence of the rise of the Tyrannosaurids. In that case, a disease is extremely unlikely as, this decline was too long to have been caused by a disease.

"Also,the biggest teeth giganotosaurus had,were as big as my hand!"

You must have small hands.

"(not to mention giganotosaurus had more teeth,with a longer skull!) If a giganotosaurus got a good grip,(where t.rex can't bite him) he could wrench huge amounts of flesh,off of a t.rex! "

Unfortunately, it's unlikely he'll ever get a grip on a T.rex at all!

"The huge skull could also be useful against t.rex. (A giganotosaurus could probably counter,most of the attacks from t.rex,with the long skull it had.) "

Sadly, Giganotosaurus had only a one foot advantage (You call that long?) And that's not a good advantage between animals 40 feet long. Besides, T.rex is not most likely not going to attack head on but rather out flank with his speed Giganotosaurus to bite him from the rear. And Giganotosaurus would not be able to use his head in this case.

"Although t.rex was strong enough to withstand a bite from giganotosaurus,I doubt it would take the chance,of being snapped up. It doesn't take a t.rex,to kill a horned-dinosaur! (although giganotosaurus couldn't crush bone,i'm convinced it could kill a horned-dinosaur.) "

Actually, Giganotosaurus would be in serious trouble when he attacks something like a Triceratops. The speed and agility of this herbivore will be extremely dangerous mainly because Giganotosaurus was not fast! He'll have alot of trouble trying to avoid a Triceratops charge! Notice Tyrannosaurus evolved his superior speed and agility to deal with this kind of prey, features with Giganotosaurus lacks, and he' is going to be in serious danger if he ever thinks that attacking a Triceratops is going to be like hunting the prey he's used to.

"Evidence shows horned-dinosaurs probably wielded their horned frills,like baseball bats. "

I believe stabbling would be more efficent.

"Anyway,do you think giganotosaurus,is just going to sit there,while t.rex is about to knock the sense out of him?! (GET OUT OF HERE!!!)"

Nope, but he'll roar in fustration, fear and pain as he tries vainly to snap back at T.rex while T.rex runs in, avoids his attacks, and rips a 70 kilo chunk of flesh off his flank or thigh, shattering a few bones in the process. He'll try to run but the Tyrannosaurus will simply ourun and outmanuver him. T.rex is simply too fast and agile for him to strike back at, while he's a large, slow target all to easy for T.rex to attack. And after the first bite, Giganotosaurus is already well on the way to being a fossil, losing blood at a tremedus rate and suffering internal damage as well.

"In a hunting contest,t.rex would probably win. But in a deathmatch,giganotosaurus would probably win. "

Once again, as I have proved, your opinion is wrong!

". I couldn't help,but to hear somebody say there is no evidence for my disease theory.(Are you saying,there's evidence for you'r theory?!) "

Yes, there is fossil evidence for the Tyrannosaurids outhunting the Allosaurids but none for a disease at all.

" What is that killjoy(Honkie Tong)thinking? A:he thinks everything is impossible"

But in your case, you ignore basic facts of logic and think EVERYTHING is possible (Allosaurus had claws harder than steel, could jump 20 feet...) come to think of it, if you ask people, the person who is dumber would be...you...
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

the raptors in jp3 are probably deinonychus or very close to it
from BILLY C, age 11, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

That horned dino in JP3 is a Carnotaurus, not a Ceratosaurus.

The difference-the horn of the Carnotaurus is located above the eye.

I suggest that you guys read The Lost World book by Michael Crichton. It's way better than the movie.
In that book, Crichton portrayed them as chameleon like creatures, having extreme camouflage capabilities. I don't know where he got that idea.
from Guile, age 19, Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines; August 4, 2001

Question to any dino experts here:

What is the ideal femur, tibia-fibula, metatarsus ratio a biped animal needs for it to be considered a fast runner?
from Guile, age 19, Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines; August 4, 2001

THE FOURTH CHAPTER OF THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY IS HERE!

PS: It's coming...
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 4, 2001

Brad,chandler,I have a question for you. What is the torvosaurus?
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 4, 2001

I got my disease theory,from bakker. He says disease may have wiped out the dinosaurs. I don't think this is what caused the extinction of the dinosaurs,in general though. But I do think disease,might have had something to do,with the extinction at the end,of the jurassic period. What is that killjoy(Honkie Tong)thinking? A:he thinks everything is impossible
from Sean 3:16, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 4, 2001

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/wildfireyucan/index.html

Here's a neat web site that contains actual photographs of extinct animals!
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

If sinraptor had a septic bite,then maybe giganotosaurus had a septic bite too! Also,the biggest teeth giganotosaurus had,were as big as my hand! (not to mention giganotosaurus had more teeth,with a longer skull!) If a giganotosaurus got a good grip,(where t.rex can't bite him) he could wrench huge amounts of flesh,off of a t.rex! The huge skull could also be useful against t.rex. (A giganotosaurus could probably counter,most of the attacks from t.rex,with the long skull it had.) Although t.rex was strong enough to withstand a bite from giganotosaurus,I doubt it would take the chance,of being snapped up. It doesn't take a t.rex,to kill a horned-dinosaur! (although giganotosaurus couldn't crush bone,i'm convinced it could kill a horned-dinosaur.) Evidence shows horned-dinosaurs probably wielded their horned frills,like baseball bats. Anyway,do you think giganotosaurus,is just going to sit there,while t.rex is about to knock the sense out of him?! (GET OUT OF HERE!!!) In a hunting contest,t.rex would probably win. But in a deathmatch,giganotosaurus would probably win. I couldn't help,but to hear somebody say there is no evidence for my disease theory.(Are you saying,there's evidence for you'r theory?!) You t.rex fans aren't making a believer,out of me! Note:everything besides t.rex is a whimp,from the view of a t.rex fan.
from Sean.S the critic (IT STINKS!), age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 4, 2001

sorry euoplocephulus. Im doing The Pteranodon Story next. Ill do The Carnotaurus Story after that, ok?
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 4, 2001

Get Serious Jurasic parks veloiceraptors aren't real those are Utah Raptors
from Rory S., age 12, Warrenton, Virginia, USA; August 4, 2001

"Well then, everything would be a bit silly, considering how everything we say here is based on what scientists say."

No no no, you got it wrong. The reason it looks silly is because Sean makes up the facts, and then puts them forward as being "said by scientists". In other words, he's bluffing his way through and expecting people to buy it. Unfortunately, nobody does... It's okay to qoute scientists, but it's going to make you look pretty stupid if you are going to lie about it...(yeah right, Tyrannosaurids sperading killer plauges...)

"Yeah, but why do that when you can simply run in, dodge, and break the opponent's neck? I don't see why T.rex would need this tactic."

Yeah, he could do that too. In any case, he's going to kick some serious butt with little chance of retaliation from his opponent.

"Erm... I was sasying that Leonard said that T.rex was 13 times larger than Giganotosaurus."

You must have misread his post, let me qoute him:

"...and considering T.rex caused as estimated 13 TIMES more than Giganotosaurus, unless Giganotosaurus is 13 TIMES larger than a T.rex, he's not going have an advantage in terms of time-taken-to-kill opponent. Sadly, for as far as we see for size estimates, no Giganotosaurus of any pratical size could wistand more than a single T.rex bite to virtually any part of the body without being seriously affected. Once again, size does not matter..."

Hmm, I don't think Leonard is talking about T.rexes' size at all, but rather saying that T.rex could do 13 times more damage than Giganotosaurus. (And I think that's a conservative estimate!) He must have mispelled the "an" as "as" in the first line...

"Maybe Noasaurus isn't a suitable candidate for the 'raptor after all. This is Masiakosaurus, but the maxilla looks quite similar to the Noasaurus one! Time to forget about the Noasaurus skull reconstruction I was working on. And if you ignore the forwardly-directed premaxillary teeth, the noasaurid cranium resembles that of Abelisaurus- probably because it is partly based on Abelisaurus."

Ugh...those raptors are certainly not Noasaurids...and besides, it seems the only thing the JP3 movie makers can do without screwing up is to screw up their dinosaurs. By trying to apply logic or science to their mistakes, we are exerting unnecessary stress on ourselves. Sometimes we just have to let go and say in one loud voice "Hey! You screwed up!"
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

Rapetasaurus krausei (Rogers & Forster) is another new dinosaur this summer. I think this one has been getting some media attention.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

http://dinosauricon.com/temp/Masiakasaurus_bust.jpg

Maybe Noasaurus isn't a suitable candidate for the 'raptor after all. This is Masiakosaurus, but the maxilla looks quite similar to the Noasaurus one! Time to forget about the Noasaurus skull reconstruction I was working on. And if you ignore the forwardly-directed premaxillary teeth, the noasaurid cranium resembles that of Abelisaurus- probably because it is partly based on Abelisaurus.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

Stop trying to explain the mistakes in JP??? So the scaly, high-snouted, sickle-clawed theropod is not Noasaurus? :)

But seriously, has anyone thought that those 'raptors just might be Noasaurus? I think they are.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 4, 2001

"and that "scientist says" statement makes the whole thing look rather silly."

Well then, everything would be a bit silly, considering how everything we say here is based on what scientists say.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 4, 2001

"Not really actually, if you come to think of it. T.rex bit up to 13,000 newtons (and that's a conservative estimate), which is certainly very much higher than Giganotosaurus."

Erm... I was sasying that Leonard said that T.rex was 13 times larger than Giganotosaurus.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 4, 2001

"Erm, because he was smart and knew how to reduce the risks to himself while maximizing his effect on his opponent? In other words, he was fighting smart. I mean, if you have a reasonable agility and speed advantage over your opponent, why not make full use of it? It's a sensible thing to do."

Yeah, but why do that when you can simply run in, dodge, and break the opponent's neck? I don't see why T.rex would need this tactic.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 4, 2001

Dinosaus Lived for millions and trillions of years. How did they Die out? Nobody knows. But, I wish they lived a little bit longer too.
from Lexi K., age 8, Wrentham, Massachusetts, United States of America; August 4, 2001

"And Honkie, your Ceratosaurus actually looks more accucrate than the JP3 one (and that's a difference!)! Could have used mroe textures though!"

I know...I'm working on the mapping.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

"I'd be lying if I said,t.rex couldn't beat giganotosaurus.But I am saying,giganotosaurus could beat t.rex,as well."

Of course, I hope you'll understand the point I am driving at is not Giganotosaurus couldn't kill T.rex, but T.rex had a very good advantage over Giganotosaurus, and would win a very good portion of the time. Of course, in that case, it would mean that he's the better contestant.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

"Actually, history has been rampant with smaller animals putcompeting the top predator. Wolves are a good example here in america, where they had driven the hunting cats that were so common then into serious decline, despite being smaller. And in more modern terms, a puny, 60-kilo predator has outcompeted all the gigantic top predators in the world and has become the top predator in the world. This predator is man. You don't have to be bigger or stronger intinally, you simply have to be more effective. And the reason that the Tyrannosaurids managed to diversify so much and replace so many predators (even the raptors) is in itself a testomony to the the prowness of the Tyrannosaurids as one of the deadilest predators ever in all of Dinosauria. And no, a killer plauge as suggested by Sean and the "scientists" he made up in his mind is total nonsense, evan anybody with a basic grasp of microbiology can tell you this is impossible, not to mention we hav! e no evidence to back it up a! t all. "

Wow Lillian, excellent stuff. Did you start taking biology in school? Your posts do seem to have matured alot (I remember your eariler posts were a lot more rowdy)
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

""and considering T.rex caused as estimated 13 TIMES more than Giganotosaurus,"

"That's ridiculously big, comparing T.rex to Giganotosaurus."

Not really actually, if you come to think of it. T.rex bit up to 13,000 newtons (and that's a conservative estimate), which is certainly very much higher than Giganotosaurus. Giganotosaurus had a skull morph very similar to A.Fragilis (so comparative anatomy can be done here, but Giganotosaurus' skull was not as robustly built as A.Fragilis), so we'll scale up from there. A.Fragilis had a 1 meter skull that could exert up to 670 newtons, so Giganotosaurus with a 1.8 meter skull should do up to about 1,110 newtons, which is about 13 times less than T.rexes' 13,000 newtons. Not to mention T.rexes' dental oration was maximized for causing more damage. So while a Giganotosaurus bite would be stopped at the bone level, a T.rex bite would pass right through to destroy any thing in a 1-meter arc. Reasonably, that's talking a great deal more damage. Size obviously has nothing to do with bite force here, it's the weapons the animals pack, and T.rex has a definate advantage here. Good job Leonard!

Ps: 13,000 N is actually the force rating taken from a feeding tooth-mark. A Tyrannosaurus attacking at full force would easily exceed 20,000 N! In any case, Giganotosaurus or any allosaur for that matter, is far behind in the area of doing damage. A.fragilis bite marks are derived from attack bite marks (marks that were made when the Allosaurus was going all out to kill prey) made in unsucessful attempts and computer models, indicating that A.fragilis had a maximum bite of about 670 N. T.rex easily exceeds that force, even in a glancing partial blow as indicated by the tail of a duckbill. T.rex was certianly the undisputed champion in dealing out punishment by a very large margin!
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

"And rexie would need this tactic WHY???"

Erm, because he was smart and knew how to reduce the risks to himself while maximizing his effect on his opponent? In other words, he was fighting smart. I mean, if you have a reasonable agility and speed advantage over your opponent, why not make full use of it? It's a sensible thing to do.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 4, 2001

HAY SEAN S WHAT HAPPENED TO JP CRONICLES
from BILLYC, age 11, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

DOES ANY BODY KNOY WHERE DINOSAUR JACK WENT? AND WHO WAS HE BRAD? PLEASE TELL BBECAUSE YOU WHERE HIS FREIND IN THE YEAR 2000.
from NOBODY KNOWS, age NOBODY N, NOWBODY KNOWS, NOBODY KNOWS, NOWBODY KNOWS; August 3, 2001

"How could such a small dinosaur, outcompete the top predator? "

Actually, history has been rampant with smaller animals putcompeting the top predator. Wolves are a good example here in america, where they had driven the hunting cats that were so common then into serious decline, despite being smaller. And in more modern terms, a puny, 60-kilo predator has outcompeted all the gigantic top predators in the world and has become the top predator in the world. This predator is man. You don't have to be bigger or stronger intinally, you simply have to be more effective. And the reason that the Tyrannosaurids managed to diversify so much and replace so many predators (even the raptors) is in itself a testomony to the the prowness of the Tyrannosaurids as one of the deadilest predators ever in all of Dinosauria. And no, a killer plauge as suggested by Sean and the "scientists" he made up in his mind is total nonsense, evan anybody with a basic grasp of microbiology can tell you this is impossible, not to mention we have no evidence to back it up a! t all.

And by the way, even if the Allosaurids were defeated by a killer plague driven by the Tyrannosaurids, it was obvious that the Allosaurids have lost anyway, so in both ways, Sean's points are dead...well, Sauron does have a point when he says that Sean is only hurting his own arguments the more he argues as he has a reckless disregard for the facts. But of course, a killer plauge never happened. Hmm...are Sean's arguments starting to sound on the same level as Creationist "science"?
from Lillian T., age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

How do you know this,Leonard?!! Would you like to tell me,how you'r points work? (you haven't said much,except "i'm wrong")
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 3, 2001

"Creationists (who are the generally the people rallying against radioisotope dating) do not "believe" in radioisotope dating because it conflicts with their belief that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. It is not any small inaccuracies of the technique that they object to; they reject the physic involved and, more importantly, the idea that the Earth that is billions of years old. JC"

Ugh...Creationists never struck me as a impartial lot...I mean for goodness sake, stop trying to explain everything just to make it "fit"!
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

"Since t.rex came at such a late time,you would think its superior. Most people think tyrannosaurids outcompeted the allosaurids in the north. (But the biggest of the early tyrannosaurids,were no longer than 16 feet!) If an allosaurus was faced with a 16 foot long tyrannosaurid,it would die laughing!"

Mabye that's how the Allosaurids gone extinct? But the fossil record can not be disputed, a sudden rise in the number and varities of early Tyrannosaurids led to a sharp drop in the number of Allosaurids. Note that the early Tyrannosaurids didn't have to face the Allosaurids directly one to one, the early Tyrannosaurids simply outhunted them, and/or killed their young at astonishing numbers and all in all made life rather miserable for the Allosaurids. The Allosaurids stood no chance and they rapidly went extinct, driven out by the faster, smash-mouth haunting Tyrannosaurids. It's rather like how the modern lion drove the tiger out of the plains by making life extremely miserable for them that they went literally extinct in the african savannah.

" How could such a small dinosaur, outcompete the top predator? "

Apparently they did, the early Tyrannosaurids didn't have to be bigger, they simply out smarted, out ran and out hunted the Allosaurids.

"scientist suggest the tyrannosaurs had a disease,that the allosaurids were not used to,thus they died off in north america!"

That is extremly untrue and has absolutely no evidence to support it, you're saying something that has no fossil evidence to base it on. Besides, inter-species trasmittion of diseases are not common, and they also certainly wouldn't affect the whole lot of different Allosaurids. No I've to conclude you are bluffing again, and that "scientist says" statement makes the whole thing look rather silly.

"Note:my sources tell me that tyrannosaurids,are originally from Asia. As monstarr said,"giganotosaurus and tyrannosaurus,are equal but different."

Actually, it's suspected that Tyrannosaurids spread to asia. And as I said, Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus are different, and that's the reason why Giganotosaurus is at a sever disadvantage here! You really shouldn't qoute Monstarr, why? A)He was severly debunked B)His points are outdated c)He's about as inaccucrate in putting out info as you! But then again, as Leonard said, you are simply playing politics here, which is sad, as it'll likely backfire!
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

"I do think that a run-in-bite-and-run-away tatic by T.rex is going to be extremely effective against any opponent."

And rexie would need this tactic WHY???
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 3, 2001

I'd be lying if I said,t.rex couldn't beat giganotosaurus.But I am saying,giganotosaurus could beat t.rex,as well.
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 3, 2001

"and considering T.rex caused as estimated 13 TIMES more than Giganotosaurus,"

That's ridiculously big, comparing T.rex to Giganotosaurus.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 3, 2001

"Come on, someone side with me! That thing was not a Ceratosaurus! There are also two other new dinosaurs to the series in JP3: Corythosaurus and some sort of ankylosaur."

Actually, it's not too smart to try to explain the mistakes the crew of JP3 made, they were mistakes, plain and simple...that was a Ceratosaurus (as said by the producers), and a terribly inaccucrate one at that!
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

"That's sort of an odd question, because Earth is the only place dinosaurs ever lived."

Oh COME ON, Brad. You know what she was asking. She's 8! Give her a break!
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 3, 2001

"Come on, someone side with me! That thing was not a Ceratosaurus! There are also two other new dinosaurs to the series in JP3: Corythosaurus and some sort of ankylosaur."

I agree with you...maybe it is some sort of undiscovered _Ceratosaurus_ descendant, or some sort of other undiscovered horned theropod.
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

"How did dinosaurs originate on earth?"

That's sort of an odd question, because Earth is the only place dinosaurs ever lived.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 3, 2001

"Name the 2 new dinosaurs in jp3 answer:ceratosaurus and spinosaurus"

Come on, someone side with me! That thing was not a Ceratosaurus! There are also two other new dinosaurs to the series in JP3: Corythosaurus and some sort of ankylosaur.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 3, 2001

This is the first time I've ever participated in a dinosaur message board and I just want to say that I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks T-Rex could still defeat Giganotosaurus. Thanks, Leonard!
from Tyler L., age 14, Lansing, Michigan, USA; August 3, 2001

Hey Shane,Write The Carnotaurus Story Next!
from euoplacephulas, age 8, Alta, CA, USA; August 3, 2001

Shane,are you sure north america and south america were connected,100 million years ago? http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/Geologictime.html
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 3, 2001

Whats wrong with my latest posts,sauron? By the way,this is what monstarr said in the archives: http://www.enchantedlearning.com/dinotalk/old/Feb01a.shtml
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 3, 2001

Ok, I'm posting a little too much today, but if you look at the expert answered questions page recently, you'll realize a really detailed post (abbet, long) question by Lillian T. Her points are pretty amazing and good (dang! why didn't I think of that before) and even the expert agrees! Of course, this makes it extremely convincing that the only way for any large non-tyrannosaurid carnivorous dinosaur we know to kill T.rex quickly was to bite it for the neck, while on the other hand, T.rex didn't have to worry about where he hit to inflict a mortal injury. In other words, he had a much larger effective zone for wounding his opponent mortally and that's going to add alot towards the advantages he already has in speed, agility and capacity to dish out damage. Oooh, any argument that this would be somewhat of a fair contest is starting to sound more and more unbalanced...

And of course, Lillian also refers to other large advantages that T.rex had over other carnivores in her excellent post, and yes Lillian, I do think that a run-in-bite-and-run-away tatic by T.rex is going to be extremely effective against any opponent. Given T.rexes' advantages in speed and agility, it drastically reduces its' risk of injury while the slower and less agile carnosaurs have almost no means of defending themselves effectively from such an attack!

That's a mean pieces of a post Lillian!
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

"Q: I recently attended a talk given by a doctor of physics. Part of what he said spoke of a flaw in carbon dating which meant that not only was it unreliable, but probably completely wrong. He suggested that some dinosaurs may in fact have lived at the same time as humans and that most of life on earth may have been wiped out by a great flood caused by a meteor which would account for the different layers of sediment between humans and dinosaurs. He said that this could have been the flood described in the bible (Noah etc). Is this remotely possible and are there problems with carbon dating?
from Matt, Worcester, The Midlands, England; August 2, 2001

A: The main problem with carbon dating is the existence of cranks who dislike science and would rather return to a more medieval way of life. Carbon dating is based on basic physics - isotopes of elements decay into more stable forms over time (there have never been any irregularities observed in the process of radioisotope decay). There is nothing in doubt about radioisotope decay - it's as inevitable as death, taxes, and the lunatic fringe."

Personally, I believe carbon dating is like any scientific method, inherently inaccucrate, not due to major flaws in theory itself, but probably due to the inherently chaotic world we live in. So there will be some error one way or another due to the conditions present (like machine error) when the sample was taken. I certainly don't think it could be WRONG by that MUCH a margin though, and one has to look at the fossil record to tell us that not all species of animals lived at the same time! Carbon Dating not required! Frankly, sometimes facts have to be weighted instead of finding a totally improbabble way to worm around it! But some people just won't give up...
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001
Note: Creationists (who are the generally the people rallying against radioisotope dating) do not "believe" in radioisotope dating because it conflicts with their belief that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. It is not any small inaccuracies of the technique that they object to; they reject the physic involved and, more importantly, the idea that the Earth that is billions of years old. JC

"It's like machine gun fire. Spray the target with bites, and hope to cause it enough damage to go down as the predator retreats. Afterwards it's a simple matter of waiting for the target to drop. When you look at the late Cretaceous, and prey animals such as Triceratops, and Ankylosaurus it isn't too hard to tell why predators like Giga failed, and were replaced by hard biters who would instead force their ways close, try to get in that one key bite, and bet it all on bringing down that target in just one bone cracking, lethal blow."

Actually it's pretty scary, at Tom Holtz said, the fossil record showed that the early Tyrannosaurids put alot of other big-game hunters out of buisness whenever they lived. Even the large raptors like Utahraptor went extinct and were replaced. This is extremely intresting, and more study of inter-species related extinctions are on the way, so wait for more news!

"I'm going the same path monstarr did! "

Ooooo....bad path to follow man. That guy made absolutely no sense at all...but then again, it's your type of guy right?

"Does anyone here know anything about pliosaurs? Everywhere I look I cannot find anyone interested in this subject and I don't know why! Pliosaurs were giant aquatic reptiles with streamlined bodies and gigantic heads rather like crocodile skulls, only more robust. They used flippers to move and were probably very manuverable. It is my theory that they were far more intelligent than other teressrial reptiles, because I believe an aquatic lifestyle opens up a whole new potential for intelligence. Look at whales! One pliosaur, liopleurodon, could have made an easy snack out of T.rex. Fossils show that he may have been 66 ft long, 80 ft as an upper limit. That would make him the biggest carnivore ever, even bigger than megalodon or the sperm whale!"

Of course marine carnivores could afford to be larger, you don't really need to be lightweight to walk when you spend all your time swimming do you?

And Honkie, your Ceratosaurus actually looks more accucrate than the JP3 one (and that's a difference!)! Could have used mroe textures though!
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

"Sean, I don't see the point of your posts. Are you trying to prove the superiority of Giganatosaurus over Tyrannosaurus? Or vice versa? If anything, your posts seem to hurt your arguements more than strengthen them."

He he...that is so true.

"But I think Bakker apparently proved lips for Tyrannosaurus somewhere in the Dinosaur Heresies. Did Ford provide an alternate explanation for Bakker's evidence (holes along the jaw)?"

Even if it didn't have lips, Tyrannosaurus would have almostly certainly has some way to seal its mouth instead of leaving it open in the way we are all so used too. Some teeth would be sticking out though! Maybe they are just a set of extra large scales, but certainly not like mamillian lips at all!

"How big is a magaraptor's femur ?"

Not sure, but it was a big animal, no matter what. Megaraptor would have used mych less of its sickle claw however, as it's leg was considerably more gracile and less robust than that of a normal raptor. Heck, I'm not even sure if it's a dromie at all. Could be convergence. A
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

He he! It looks like Sean's Seventh Sign of Evil/you'r worst nightmare gimmic backfired totally! Instead of inspiring more people on his side by posting that picture and saying "Take that T.rex fans!" He actually caused one guy to take the converse idea! Man, now that's really ironic! Well, this is what happens when you play with politics instead of the facts, instead of hyping anybody to take his side by posting an utterly irrevalant and bandwith wasting picture, the plan backfired badly instead.

"Well,think about it. In the world of dinosaaurs, a pack could hunt much more effectively than a loner. If you were a raptor, would you attack Igunadon or Edmontosaur alone or in a pack?"

Hmm...Utahraptors didn't NECESSARYLY have to prey on large herbivores. The many smaller plant eaters in the range of 2-3 meters would be good for it too! In that case, Utahraptor didn't take out anything too big at all. Once again, I'd like to say that the pack-hunting theroy is simply based on an assumption that Utahraptors MUST have hunted large prey and there is simply no evidence to base this on.

"Some scientists have proven that Anklyasaurous's tail could rip off a mastodons leg off. It's the strongest tail ever."

That is so true! Ankylosaurus was specially designed to repel attacks by one of the most dangerous carnviores ever designed in all of dinosauria: the Tyrannosaurids. I don't think it could rip off a mastodon's leg, but more likely give it a nasty compound fracture. True enough, some Tyrannosaurus fossils have been found with healed compound fractures of the leg at Ankylosaurus tail-level, evidence that Ankylosaurus was an animal to be avoided once it got to a credible size. Attrition rates for young Ankylosaurids though, must have been high.

"there was only one predator big enough to attack from above-that predator was giganotosaurus) )"

Actually, T.rex was big enough to attack a sauropod from the above too, but unfortunately, there were virtually no sauropods left by the time T.rex was around. So once again, this point means nothing. And do take your information from somewhere else than the dinosauricon!

""giganotosaurus had big teeth." A:true!(although they aren't as big as t.rex teeth,they're still pretty big!) "giganotosaurus had a septic bite."

Uh uh, wrong again, "big" is unfortunately, a relative term. Giganotosaur teeth were puny compaired to T.rex. And no, it had no septic bite.

"Also,giganotosaurus and carcharodontosaurus are thought to be kin to sinraptor!(Honkie Tong said that sinraptor might have had a septic bite recently!) "

Uh uh...very wrong again, it's like saying all lizards had a septic bite simply by looking at their relatives the monitor lizard and the komodo dragon. Unless you have the adaptations for a septic bite, you are not going to have it even if your relative has one. Giganotosaurus certainly didn't have the adaptations for a septic bite!

"Since giganotosaurus was bigger than t.rex,it would probably take longer,for the t.rex to kill him. "giganotosaurus was 46-47 feet long." A:true!(Although its not on display,they have found some larger-younger relatves of giganotosaurus! some even larger relatives continue to turn up!) "

Uh uh...once again you are on shaky ground. The larger allosaurs found are NOT giganotosaurus, and even so, most of the material is yet to be described and as new estimates come up, the size is shrinking all the more. Originally, the new allosaur was thought to be 55 feet long, now it's down to 44 (your 46-47 feet was an old estimate) and considering T.rex caused as estimated 13 TIMES more than Giganotosaurus, unless Giganotosaurus is 13 TIMES larger than a T.rex, he's not going have an advantage in terms of time-taken-to-kill opponent. Sadly, for as far as we see for size estimates, no Giganotosaurus of any pratical size could wistand more than a single T.rex bite to virtually any part of the body without being seriously affected. Once again, size does not matter, intelligence, ability and weapons do, things Giganotosaurus are seriously lacking in this engagement.

"The hatchet action they used,looks effective too. T.rex was not armoured,thus giganotosaurus could easily slice through the flesh of t.rex! (Not to mention giganotosaurus had a larger skull-with better reach)"

Unfortunately for Giganotosaurus, T.rex could not only easily slice through the flesh of Giganotosaurus, it could also strip muscle from flesh, rend bone, puncture any internal organs, and otherwise remove a very large chunk of meat from Giganotosaurus. Also, I don't think a puny one foot advantage in a skull is going to make up for the lack of agility and speed to use the skull. Unfortunately, the hatchet method only works well if the entire length of the jaw can be brought to bear, and not just the tip, so it elimates the reach advantage anyway! Of course, I doubt Giganotosaurus is going to get any much of a good chance to bite T.rex at all. T.rex was simply too fast and agile for it. As the great dinobattler Honkie Tong Ka Fong Francis Ong Su Ka (did I get your name right?) said. "The question is not what Gigantosaurus can do to T.rex, but it's what T.rex WILL do to Giganotosaurus!"

"If the skull of giganotosaurus,was that fragile,his lower jaw would break,every time he opened his jaws. (In the flesh,it may have been sturdier) "

You are getting it wrong when people are talking about "fragile" Giganotosaurus jaws were certianly sturdy enough to open, but lacked the robustness required to bite hard. Of course, then again, you never listen...

"I'm convinced giganotosaurus could beat t.rex."

As I've proved in detail, you are convinced wrongly...
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

"But I think Bakker apparently proved lips for Tyrannosaurus somewhere in the Dinosaur Heresies. Did Ford provide an alternate explanation for Bakker's evidence (holes along the jaw)?"

That's what I want to know...I'll have to track down the paper. But why would there be holes for blood vessels if the teeth were bare with no lips at all (like in crocodylians)? Greg Paul also did some great work with theropod lips in "Predatory Dinosaurs of the World." I don't particularly agree with many of Ford's other beliefs so I wouldn't be surprised if this one fell through.
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

But I think Bakker apparently proved lips for Tyrannosaurus somewhere in the Dinosaur Heresies. Did Ford provide an alternate explanation for Bakker's evidence (holes along the jaw)?
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 3, 2001

How big is a magaraptor's femur ?
from Kyle H, age 13, middletown, HO, North america; August 3, 2001

"How did dinosaurs originate on earth?"

Good question. The dinosaurs are thought to have come from fish that evolved legs, and became the early reptiles. The dinosaurs didn't come until the Triassic.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, OHIO, USA; August 3, 2001

I Think That T-Rex Is The Best.
from Shani, age 7, Mackay, Queensland, Australia; August 3, 2001

Yaaaah!I'm getting older!!Well,just joking.T-rex is largest,giganotosaurus is second largest.Name the 2 new dinosaurs in jp3 answer:ceratosaurus and spinosaurus
from Donovan c., age 12, ?, singapore, ?; August 3, 2001

Does anyone here know anything about pliosaurs? Everywhere I look I cannot find anyone interested in this subject and I don't know why! Pliosaurs were giant aquatic reptiles with streamlined bodies and gigantic heads rather like crocodile skulls, only more robust. They used flippers to move and were probably very manuverable. It is my theory that they were far more intelligent than other teressrial reptiles, because I believe an aquatic lifestyle opens up a whole new potential for intelligence. Look at whales! One pliosaur, liopleurodon, could have made an easy snack out of T.rex. Fossils show that he may have been 66 ft long, 80 ft as an upper limit. That would make him the biggest carnivore ever, even bigger than megalodon or the sperm whale!
from Po Mouse, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

Nicole, dinosaurs evolved from other animals, just like everything else on earth.
from Po Mouse, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

How did dinosaurs originate on earth?
from NICOLE, age 8, ohakune, north island, New Zealand; August 3, 2001

Sean, I don't see the point of your posts. Are you trying to prove the superiority of Giganatosaurus over Tyrannosaurus? Or vice versa? If anything, your posts seem to hurt your arguements more than strengthen them.
from Sauron, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 3, 2001

An excerpt from the Scientific American Book of Dinosaurs, page 255:

"Among the large theropods, tyrannosaurs of the Late Cretaceous fit, unquestionably, into their own "hyper-carnivore" category. We have never, before or since, seen anything quite like these creatures. Ranging up to 45 feet in length, they equal the largest of all carnivores ever known-and they may well represent the largest bipedal carnivore that nature will allow. The huge reinforced head 4-5 feet in length has equally long jaws lined with gigantic banana-like teeth that were used for piercing and crushing their prey with terrifying strength. Excellent binocular vision (seen in the skull), high intelligence (judged from the size of the brain cavity), long, powerful back legs for rapid movement, and very powerful talons all bear testament to its predatory abilities."
from Sauron, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

I haven't been able to read messages as of late, and now there are lot's of new ones! Okay, what's with the new Spinosaur stats? Eight tons? When did THAT happen? Wouldn't that make Spinosaurus even heavier than Giganotosaurus, Carchandtosaurus, or yes, Tyrannosaurus?

I just don't see Spino as hunting anything really that's not a young, or dying Dino.. And the bigger it's stats get, the worse it becomes.. Really, how does something with a six foot, or seven foot sail on it's back manuever through branches in order to ambush it's prey? Only way I would be able to think of Spino as a "super predator" (of dinos anyway) would be maybe, just maybe if that fin of his could fold up like a modern day frilled lizard, and only be flashed when the thing feels threatened.

Anyway, I doubt that's the case. I read not too long ago that Spino may have walked along on all fours, with bent (front) legs. So how is the 14 foot tall height reading possible? Does that include sail? I'm starting to find it pretty odd that none of these readings, stats, and assumptions were made until Spinosaurus showed up in JP3. Before then Spino was a frail, finned, overly long fish eater who wasn't probably as well adapted as Baronyx and probably outfished by the smaller model.

These predator on predator fight debates just keep going.. Personally, I think nearly any Dino has the equipment needed to kill a T-Rex. Even a human could poke it in the eye, and there would be a chance that the eye wound would get an infection.. Modern day large reptile predators fight. And during these fights it's common for body parts to be biten off, or for large wounds to be made.

Komodo dragons scratch themselves as part of a dominance ritual even. Alligators and crocodiles almost always can be found with missing toes, tail tips, or sometimes even upper/lower jaws in the wild. So I think it goes without saying that large predatory dinos likely could withstand a lot of punishment, given that the animal is a healthy individual. So if these fictional fights were to occur, it becomes, in my mind, extremely important to note that T-Rex, and it's relatives such as Albertosaurus possesed a bite capable of killing any of it's foes if they land a succesful hit ANYHWERE on an enemy.

Spino and Giga, or whoever can cause extreme injuries with a good bite. But I believe, that given time, and a chance to recover, a non neck bite would heal, and be little more than a scar. Spinosaurus and Giganotosaurus very likely killed their prey through lacerations. That is, bite and bite the target several times, as quickly as possible, and as repeatidly as possible, with very little biting force. Probably even raking a target with teeth would be good enough.

It's like machine gun fire. Spray the target with bites, and hope to cause it enough damage to go down as the predator retreats. Afterwards it's a simple matter of waiting for the target to drop. When you look at the late Cretaceous, and prey animals such as Triceratops, and Ankylosaurus it isn't too hard to tell why predators like Giga failed, and were replaced by hard biters who would instead force their ways close, try to get in that one key bite, and bet it all on bringing down that target in just one bone cracking, lethal blow.

I think everyone who supports T-Rex on this has said that almost any predator could kill a T-Rex. That's not really an argument. It just isn't very likely. T-Rex was, as far as we know, the latest, and most advanced in dino predatory technology. T-Rex represents millions of years of evolution through trial and error, as well as competiton from other species (like the Allosaurs)in it's final form. I think if something better designed to kill fellow Dinosaurs is ever discovered, it will be from the late Cretaceous, and not the Jurrasic, or early Cretaceous.

Speaking of which, any new word on the Rigsby Rex? :)
from Usen, age 20, ?, ?, USA; August 2, 2001

"Kashi, where on earth did u get the idea that t-rex was 20 feet tall?!
I mean, Giganotosaurus was longer, larger, and taller than t-rex, and Giganotosaurus reached only 14 feet tall. 20 feet would be a large Spinosaurus, including the 6-foot sail!"

Scientists once thought that huge carnivorous dinosaurs walk fully upright, dragging their tail on the ground. If Tyrannosaurus indeed walked fully upright at some point in his life, then 20 feet is possible.

Later scientists thought that those meat eaters don't walk upright at all. They walk with their head facing forward, while the tail acts as a balancing mechanism. It's lifted on the ground. They walk the way T-Rex walk in JP.

So 20 or 15 feet is right depending on what posture you're talking about.
from Guile, age 19, Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines; August 2, 2001

The teeth are shown bare, with no lips at all. Tracy Ford did research apparently disproving any lips whatsoever in all theropods. I'm not so sure I subscribe to it yet though, I haven't read his paper.
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

The teeth are shown bare, with no lips at all. Tracy Ford did research apparently disproving any lips whatsoever in all theropods. I'm not so sure I subscribe to it yet though, I haven't read his paper.
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

Is anyone else confused by the new "NATURE STRIKES BACK!" JP3 tv ads? What does JP3 have to do with nature?
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 2, 2001

I think the new nostril position for Tyrannosaurus looks fine. There's something unusual about those teeth, though.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 2, 2001

I simply said that if I were a 'raptor, I wouldn't attack a big iguanodont, regardless of how many other 'raptors were willing to take the risk with me.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 2, 2001

hey sean s whatever happened to jp cronicles
from billyc, age 11, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

Heres A Site I Found:
hppt://www.landbeforetime.com/
from euoplacephulas, age 8, Alta, CA, USA; August 2, 2001

"No."

What's that supposed to mean?
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 2, 2001

How do like them apples? http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/news/giganotonews.shtml

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/news/Biggestcarnivore.shtml
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 2, 2001

Did somebody say I was a t.rex fan? (WRONG!!!) I'm going the same path monstarr did! http://www.enchantedlearning.com/dinotalk/old/Feb01a.shtml Most of his points about giganotosaurus,seem to make sense. If the skull of giganotosaurus,was that fragile,his lower jaw would break,every time he opened his jaws. (In the flesh,it may have been sturdier) The hatchet action they used,looks effective too. T.rex was not armoured,thus giganotosaurus could easily slice through the flesh of t.rex! (Not to mention giganotosaurus had a larger skull-with better reach) Also,giganotosaurus and carcharodontosaurus are thought to be kin to sinraptor!(Honkie Tong said that sinraptor might have had a septic bite recently!) Since giganotosaurus was bigger than t.rex,it would probably take longer,for the t.rex to kill him. "giganotosaurus was 46-47 feet long." A:true!(Although its not on display,they have found some larger-younger relatves of giganotosaurus! some even larger relatives continue to turn up!) "giganotosaurus had big teeth." A:true!(although they aren't as big as t.rex teeth,they're still pretty big!) "giganotosaurus had a septic bite." A:it's possible! "giganotosaurus had a powerful bite" A:true! (Severely deformed vertebrate of sauropods and iguanodontids,have been found with allosaurus teeth marks in them! Also,some of the sauropods,giganotosaurus lived among had bony plates on their backs,which gave them protection against predators.(there was only one predator big enough to attack from above-that predator was giganotosaurus) ) I'm convinced giganotosaurus could beat t.rex.
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 2, 2001

"If you were a raptor, would you attack Igunadon or Edmontosaur alone or in a pack?"

No.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 2, 2001

Some scientists have proven that Anklyasaurous's tail could rip off a mastodons leg off. It's the strongest tail ever.
from ankly, age 365,000,00, ashdsf, fdffsf, fdfd; August 2, 2001

It is not so outlandish to propose that a _Giganotosaurus_-like animal lived at the same time as _Utahraptor_. But animals are bound in climatic/geographical barriers so I doubt that they would mix (for example, tigers could walk into Europe if they really wanted to but don't).
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/press/01/pr0160.htm

I've done some illustrations like the _Diplodocus_ before...never knew it was so "revolutionary." The _T. rex_ looks very weird with nostrils like that though...
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

"Honkie Tong, i did some research. 100 million years ago, North and south Amercia were connected. Utahraptor lived in North america the same time Giganotosaurus ruled South America 100 million years ago. So, though it is highly unlikely, Utahraptor and Giganotosaurus could have met."

Just a polar bears and jaguars occasionally meet, eh? I'm no paleogeographer, so I don't know if North and South America were connected during the late Albian. However, the animals in question are not the same age. Utahraptor is from the Barremian, about 131.8 to 124.5 million years old. Giganotosaurus is from the Albian to Cenomanian, about 112 to 90.4 million years old. While these theropods may not have been separated by an ocean, they were separated by over ten million years.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 2, 2001

THE THIRD CHAPTER OF THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY IS HERE!!!!
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 2, 2001

CHAPTER II OF THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY IS HERE!!!! DONT MISS IT!!! THIS IS YOUR LAST REMINDER BEFORE CHAPTER III COMES OUT!
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 2, 2001

"But I guess it's ok for Sean, for you seem to be a perfect candidate for a politican anyway, judging from the way you talk about dinosaurs."

Well, he did have to talk a certain way?
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 2, 2001

"It was about as good as the first one."

JP3??!!? Never!
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 2, 2001

"There WAS NO evidence that any species of raptor hunted in packs."

Well,think about it. In the world of dinosaaurs, a pack could hunt much more effectively than a loner. If you were a raptor, would you attack Igunadon or Edmontosaur alone or in a pack?
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; August 2, 2001

Hi,

I to point out that T.rex jaws are as strong as I said it is not Outdated or anything. Experts test T.rex's biting force, but not on a Triceritops bones,But on a cow's which has the similar structure of a Triceritops, and it goes to prove that T.rex bit into it's lunch with 3,000 pounds per square inch. T.rex could beat a Giganotosaurus, T.rex grew to 40 feet tall, Giganotosaurus grew to 47 feet tall, but that didn't the location or height, it matter how they were built, T.rex had very strong jaws than Gig. T.rex was built for speed and had a larger brain than Gig. So a fight between the two experts say the smart money is on Rex.

Daniel
from Daniel, age 12, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

Hi,

I to point out that T.rex jaws are as strong as I said it is not Outdated or anything. Experts test T.rex's biting force, but not on a Triceritops bones,But on a cow's which has the similar structure of a Triceritops, and it goes to prove that T.rex bit into it's lunch with 3,000 pounds per square inch. T.rex could beat a Giganotosaurus, T.rex grew to 40 feet tall, Giganotosaurus grew to 47 feet tall, but that didn't the location or height, it matter how they were built, T.rex had very strong jaws than Gig. T.rex was built for speed and had a larger brain than Gig. So a fight between the two experts say the smart money is on Rex.

Daniel
from Daniel, age 12, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

CHAPTER II IS HERE FOR THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY!!!!

And yall seem to forget that if T-rex and Spinosaurus were fighting, location would play a big rule. If they're in the woods, Rex has the advantage because Spinosaurus's emense length and that sail limits mobilily. But if they're fighting on the bank of a river, Spinosaurus has the advantage because he is used to the slippery, muddy earth.
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 2, 2001

"Though his jaws may not be as strong, but if a giganotosaurus can kill a sauropod, it could kill a T-rex. But a T-rex would probably have a better chance."

That's the problem with Giganotosaurus, it was specialized to hunt sauropods. Tyrannosaurus is going to present a animal he was not adapted to attack, which is faster, more agile, and worst of all, more intelligent. I'm not sure about you, but it seems quite clear that T.rex is the better of the two when it comes to close combat. And that's goign to give T.rex a desisive advantage over Giganotosaurus. T.rex was on the other hand, adapted to hunt animals that were more intelligent than your sauropod, fast, dangerous, and sometimes even larger than him. And unfortunately, Giganotosaurus seems to fit the type of animal T.rex was designed to attack. Not to say Giganotosaurus couldn't kill T.rex, but the odds are stacked quite heavily against him. Being specialized to hunt super-sized prey like sauropods is actually a disadventage on Gigantosaurus' part!

"If they say spino has jaws strong enough to kill a sauropod, there's now way he had weak jaws."

I think you ment "no way". Well, actually, the paleontologists who say Spinosaurus could hunt sauropods are actually going just by the sheer size of the animal, by the looks of it. There is a simple reason why Spinosaurus did not have strong jaws: he simply did not hunt full-grown sauropods! Infact, the experts who have done intensive study into Spinosaurs conclude that the massive size of Spinosaurus was actually more of a defense adaptation, and yes, they also stated it was unlikely Spinosaurus could kill a sauropod!

"And if they say a spino could kill a sauropod, I doubt it was a scavenger. "

Un oh, once agian you are taking your information from paleontologists with a limited understanding of Spinosaurus!

"I mean, Spinosaurus has the advantage over Rex if they are fighting at teh bank of a river because Spino is used to the muddy, slippery terrain."

I'm not sure if this is really true. Tyrannosaurus specimens have been found from prehistoric swamps to the highland. Obviously, this was a very verstile and adaptable creature when it came to habitats. And swamps are certinly very muddy. I doubt T.rex experienced too much difficulty navigating muddy terrain at all. Of course, being a fisher, Spinosaurus would have the definate advantage if this confrontation took part in deep water, but I don't see any reason T.rex will venture there. On the other hand, T.rex had the advantage in virtually all other terrain types!

"Like i said it depends on who got the first big hit in, and the location."

Of course, this is a very big "DEPENDS" on. If you pit two animals of almost similar size against each other, and one is considerably faster, tougher, more agile, more intelligent and packed a hit that is twenty times more than the other, I wonder who you'll wager your money on? Hmm...hard choice.
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

Wow I was wondering what everybody was talking about Giganotosaurus' skull being all fragile and such next to T-Rex until I saw that picture! Thanks, whoever posted that link, now I know what they are talking about, you are right, Giganotosaurus does indeed have a rather fragile skull when you put it next to T-Rex.

Thanks "you'r worst nightmare!", who ever you are! You must be a T-Rex fan.
from Jonathan Mattews, age 11, L.A, C.A, U.S.A; August 2, 2001

"I would actually have to go with T-man and Shane S.,on this one."

Erm, let's keep things scientific here, not political, as Tom Holtz said, politicans are slightly dumber than your average stegosaur, so lets not emulate them. But I guess it's ok for Sean, for you seem to be a perfect candidate for a politican anyway, judging from the way you talk about dinosaurs.
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

What's so intresting about the picture? Are you demostrating how porus and fragile Giganotosaurus' skull seems in compairism to other carnivores?
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 2, 2001

This is how carnosaurs,got their name:"thy flesh consumed"!
from the 7nth. sighn of evil, age god knows, ?, ?, Hell; August 1, 2001

Take that,t.rex fans! http://dinosauricon.com/images/giganotosaurus-bs.html
from you'r worst nightmare!, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

I would actually have to go with T-man and Shane S.,on this one.
from Sean.S, age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A; August 1, 2001

TO Honkie Tong: What program do you use to make those 3d pictures?
from Billy c, age 11, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Honkie Tong, i did some research. 100 million years ago, North and south Amercia were connected. Utahraptor lived in North america the same time Giganotosaurus ruled South America 100 million years ago. So, though it is highly unlikely, Utahraptor and Giganotosaurus could have met.
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY-CHAP II IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

honkie tong, i put Giganotosaurus into The Utahraptor Story to make it more interesting. And we both know even though t-rex had an advantage, Spino or Giga could win. Like i said it depends on who got the first big hit in, and the location. I mean, Spinosaurus has the advantage over Rex if they are fighting at teh bank of a river because Spino is used to the muddy, slippery terrain.
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

If they say spino has jaws strong enough to kill a sauropod, there's now way he had weak jaws.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Giganotosaurus weighed more than a T-rex, so it was bigger. Sometimes I wonder if honkie is just another crazed T-rex fan.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Though his jaws may not be as strong, but if a giganotosaurus can kill a sauropod, it could kill a T-rex. But a T-rex would probably have a better chance.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Paleontologists say a spinosaurus could kill a sauropod.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Actually, an alligator could break cattle bones but a croc could still break a heavy board. And if they say a spino could kill a sauropod, I doubt it was a scavenger. Crocodiles do not just eat fish, they kill large land animals too. They saw spinosaurs probably did the same. And paleontologists I bet know more about dinos than you.
from T-man, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

THE SECOND CHAPTER OF THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

I'm not sure how my Ceratosaurus looks, but I'm working on doing the eyes, all my dinos have beady-eyes, and the only dinos to have somewhat of a beady-stare would be Troodon or Tyrannosaurus!
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

On the Utahraptor story, do you even think it's possible for Giganotosaurus and Utahraptor to even meet?
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Hey there Daniel!

Your figures on T.rex bite force could be outdated, because our understanding of T.rex bite force was not complete until they started running ballastic and force tests based on T.rex teeth marks they found in Triceratops bones, and a much higher figure for T.rex bite appeared. Though it's apparent that T.rex was designed to bite much harder than other dinosaurs, nobody suspected it could bite so hard until they found T.rex tooth marks (or shall I say holes?) But either way, the old estimat of biting 3 times harder than a lion is still far above what other carnivores like the Allosauridae can do, but the new figures just put it out of reach. Tyrannosaurids had very specific adaptations for biting extremely hard. I'm not sure what advantage it served, but it probably gave them an very good advantage in terms of killing or holding on to their prey. A reason prehaps, why they didn't need their arms in the hunt anymore?
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

"Daniel, a Giganotosaurus could very well beat a t-rex in a fight. Like i said, it all depends on location, and who got the first bite in. Giga's jaws are quite strong. The reason it cant break bone is because of it's teeth, not its jaw strength. and any dinosaur who hunted mostly sauropods has to have strong jaws."

Once again, the statement above that Giganotosaurus had strong jaws simply beacuse it hunted sauropods is an assumption. Fossil evidence however, proves to the contray that Giganotosaurus did not have a stong bite at all. Gignotosaurus was a lacerator, not a crusher when it came to biting. Actually he was pretty average when it came to bite force for Allosaurids, the Tyrannosaurids just bit very much harder. Nope, Giganotosaurus had rather delicate jaws, not stong jaws. Actually, as A.fragilis has proved, you don't need strong jaws to take down a sauropod, you simply needed to keep lacerating it until it died. Sauropods are not fast or agile, and they can't run away in a fight, though they could be deadly close-quarters.

"Kashi, where on earth did u get the idea that t-rex was 20 feet tall?!
I mean, Giganotosaurus was longer, larger, and taller than t-rex, and Giganotosaurus reached only 14 feet tall. 20 feet would be a large Spinosaurus, including the 6-foot sail!"

Actually, Giganotosaurus was only longer than T.rex. If you look carefully at both fossils on display, you'll notice that Giganotosaurus had rather short legs compaired to its length to Tyrannosaurus, thus it was about the same heght! As for Kashi, I think he took the height estimates measureing from the head, which is not too good a thing. T.rex was bout' 14 feet tall at the hips, which is what we use to measure most animals. Spinosaurus certaily wasn't tall if you measured it from the hips, it was about 13-14 feet all at best. But really, I don't think being tall gives you too much of an advantage in Spinosaurus' case. If Spinosaurus got so ridiculusly tall for it's short legs, its center-of-gravity would be dangerously high.

"A quote from Dr. Tom Holtz: "Spinosaurus was larger than Tyrannosaurus Rex, so it was probably stronger."

Actually, what Holtz meant by "stonger" is not what you think. Heavier animals are expected to be "stronger" than lighter ones as they have to move more weight around. A guy weighting 80 kilos is "stronger" than a guy weight 70 kilos, but a 70 kilo guy could easily overpower the larger guy if he had a better-power-to-weight ratio or upper body strength. It's hard to tell from the fossils, but the heavily muscled body of Tyrannosaurus seems to indicate it was extremely strong for it's size. Not in moving its weight, but strength as in that avaiable to do other things. Spinosaurus, being more lightly built, was not as strong when it came to terms of having avaiable strength. Here's an example, a lion will always be stronger than a leopard when it comes to terms of overpowering other animals, even if the leopard had a size or weight advantage on the lion! The reason being that lions are more heavily muscled than leopards for the same weight. Really, the term "strength" based on size can be quite misleading, technically they are stronger, but pratically it's not going to help if a large portion of this "strength" was used just to move the animal. We should look at the power-to-weight ratio and the muscle-mass-distribution instead! It hard to tell sinply by looking at fossils, but you get the general impression that the Tyrannosaurids was built for power.

"In Jurassic Park 1 there were Dilophosaurus that spit poison,

is there actual proof that they realy did this?"

Well, no. Actually being the largest predator around at its time, Dilophosaurus did not need to use posion. I'm not sure if any other dinosaurs used venom to kill their prey and we may likely never know. But however, some carnivores like Tyrannosaurus (and possibly Sinraptor)are known to show adaptations for a septic bite, so in a sense they can be considered to be using "venom" to kill their prey!
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

my favorite dinosaurs are utahraptor, giganotosaurus, tyrannosaurus rex, and spinosaurus
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

In Jurassic Park 1 there were Dilophosaurus that spit poison,

is there actual proof that they realy did this?
from Nick R, age 12, Spokane, Washington, United States; August 1, 2001

Shane, I read your story about the Utahraptors, and I thought it was excellent. I also read the first chapter about the Giganotsauruses, and I thought that was good too. Keep on writing these stories, I don't know about any one else, but I think they're amazing.

By the way, just out of curiosity, what's your favourite dinosaur?

P.S. THIS IS A MESSAGE TO EVERYONE. I AM CHANGING MY NAME TO UTAHRAPTOR. IT'S STILL ME - MIKE, I JUST WANT TO USE A AFKE NAME FROM NOW ONE.
from UTAHRAPTOR, age EXTINCT, ?, UTAH, ?; August 1, 2001

A quote from Dr. Tom Holtz: "Spinosaurus was larger than Tyrannosaurus Rex, so it was probably stronger."
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

Kashi, these are the stats from the book by paleontolgists Tom Holtz and Michael Brett-Surman:
Height: Spino-18.5 feet (including 5-foot sail), Rex-13 feet.
Weight: Spino-8 tons, Rex: 7 tons
Length: Spino-over 46 feet, Rex-41 feet(notice the word over in spino)
Strongest of the two: According to the two paleontologists, it was too close to call.
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

"I have no idea why people insist Utahraptor MUST have hunted in a pack, I mean behaviour for one species of raptor DOES not apply to all the variants."

I don't think there is any 'raptor species that must have hunted in a pack (pride, whatever). Which one are you talking about?
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; August 1, 2001

Once again, I agree with Brad. There WAS NO evidence that any species of raptor hunted in packs. I did not think of this before, I always thought that since there were packs of Velociraptors in JP, that they had some sort of evidence that ALL species of raptors hunted in packs. Now I know there is no proof. But everyone thinks they do. Why? In each page of information for each type of raptor, they say "They may have hunted in packs," or "they could have hunted in packs," or "they probably hunted in packs,". But in not one of these pages, does it say "They did hunt in packs."
from Mike, age 12, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Daniel, a Giganotosaurus could very well beat a t-rex in a fight. Like i said, it all depends on location, and who got the first bite in. Giga's jaws are quite strong. The reason it cant break bone is because of it's teeth, not its jaw strength. and any dinosaur who hunted mostly sauropods has to have strong jaws.
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

Kashi, where on earth did u get the idea that t-rex was 20 feet tall?!
I mean, Giganotosaurus was longer, larger, and taller than t-rex, and Giganotosaurus reached only 14 feet tall. 20 feet would be a large Spinosaurus, including the 6-foot sail!
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

"_Veliciraptor_."

That should be _Velociraptor_, I guess I was typing too fast.
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Hi,

I see that everyone is saying that thier correct, and I wrong, I don't like the word "Actually." I am not using the word to say that I'm right or wrong. It's your opinions, theroies not that your right, thats what will start up an agurement. My messages on the T.rex bite are fact because it has been proven by experts that appeared on tv. I don't to disagree with KL, Leonard, or Shane S. Please take time to read the repliy that I posted to Shane S. Please No Agruements! Post an opinion and I try to get to you.

Till Again, Daniel
from Daniel, age 12, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

"Just because the Velociraptors in JP looked twelve feet long, that doesn't mean that in real life they were. The info on this site says that Velociraptors were about 3 feet tall, and six feet long. Utahraptors were about 10 feet tall, and 20 feet long. So in real life, Utahraptors WERE immense compared to real Velociraptors."

I never gave a size estimate on real _Veliciraptor_. I know that they were that size, I was just making a comparison to the JP raptors for everyone.
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

"Thanks for the response Shane S." You do got a ponit, though Spinosaurus may have a chance, but T. Rex may every well indeed still come out the victor but still good point. I have a problem with Giganotosaurus though, T. Rex still can quite cause some damage, But still good point though. I ain't saying that I disagree with you but I just saying on what I done in research. Spinosaurus may have a good chance, but Giganotosaurus will loose by good chance if you what know I mean. But let me tell you Spino's teeth are power as T.rex. How? Well as experts had look at Spiny's cousins, Spinosaurus teeth may be only used for catching fish. Giganotosaurus only used it teeth to cut through flesh and muscle, T. rex bite 3,000 pounds per square inch into flesh and bone and like I stated before thats 6 times more powerful than a shark's and 3 times more powerful than a lion's, so T.rex bit into it's dinner. Great points though, I must admitted. Hope you replied ! to this message. "No agurements please!"

Daniel
from Daniel, age 12, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

"If the Utahraptor can be in a pack, why not the Albertosaurus?
from Brad, age 14, Woodville

I agree with you, Brad."

Actually, as I've mentioned, there is MORE evidence for Albertosaurus going in a pack (though the term "pack" is a misnomer as I doubt any species of dinosaur organized themselves' as a pack. A pride structure is more likely, requiring less intelligence). There certainly is some concrete evidence for Albertosaurus and Tyrannosaurus gathering together, and a "pack" is certianly likely. Oddly though, despite having more evidence for Tyrannosaurids like Albertosaurus and Tyrannosaurus HUNTING in a pack, we still refer to them as mainly solitary. I guess it's mainly because a pack of Albertosaurus or Tyrannosaurus would easily blast any dino versus argument out of the window? :)

I have no idea why people insist Utahraptor MUST have hunted in a pack, I mean behaviour for one species of raptor DOES not apply to all the variants. Lions are good gropies but Tigers are mainly solitary, you get the idea? Whenever we say that Utahraptors hunted in a pack, we are actually making a very big assumption, something that is based on no concrete evidence at all.
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Actually Shane, T.rex was about 20 feet tall. And Spinosaurus "cheats" it has almost 7 feet added to its height by its sail! Measured from the hip, the shorter legs of Spinosaurus and it's lower slung body made it quite short indeed.

I think JP3 is a lously show. In my opinion, it is the worst of the lot. In fact, even all my non-dino friends are saying they regreted watching the show!
from Kashi, age ?, Daishi, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Bite Forces

"I learnt that T. Rex's jaws are six times stronger than sharks and 3 times more powerful than a loin's,"

Actually, T.rex jaws are 13-20 times more powerful than that of a lion, a lion bites at maximum force of what? 900 newtons? T.rex commonly reaches 13,000 with alot of excess. Sharks actually don't bite too much harder than humans at all! But their razor sharp teeth makes them far deadiler than us. But if you want a figure, large predatory sharks at bite around 200-250 newtons (humans do about 150). So in that case, T.rex is biting over 60 times harder than a shark! Now T.rex must have had very tough meals to demolish! Most allosaurids like A.fragilis and Giganotosaurus do a decent but pitiful by compairism 550-1000 newtons. As for the Spinosaurs, this figure is even lower. It's pretty amazing how hard this animal could bite. And this thing is certianly no scavenger too, the forces it can put up is far above what is needed to demolish bones.
from Kashi, age ?, Daishi, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

I agree with you, Brad.
from Mike, age 12, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Actually Usen, Spinosaurus was quite tall. It was between 13 and 14 feet tall, which is taller than Tyrannosaurus Rex. In my opinion, Spinosaurus used its fin for thermoregulation, impressing mates, and scaring off rivals. And Chandeler, I disagree about JP3 and TLW. JP3, in my opinion, was much better than TLW. It was about as good as the first one.

p.s. THE FIRST CHAPTER IN THE GIGANOTOSAURUS STORY IS HERE!!!
from Shane S., age 1000, nowhere, private property, who cares?; August 1, 2001

Sorry for freaking out on you, Super Mario. I understand you now.
from Mike, age 12, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Actually there's no evidence for pack hunting in _Utahraptor_ (not to say they didn't gather in packs though). And even if they were in a pack, trying to hunt an albertosaur would be pointless and the pack would suffer enormous fatalities. And _Utahraptor_ was approximately 20 feet long, including a long tail. Some of the TLW "raptors" look at least 12 feet long, including the tail..._Utahraptors_ weren't that immense. 20 feet isn't that long, especially when counting the long tail.
from Chandler, age

Just because the Velociraptors in JP looked twelve feet long, that doesn't mean that in real life they were. The info on this site says that Velociraptors were about 3 feet tall, and six feet long. Utahraptors were about 10 feet tall, and 20 feet long. So in real life, Utahraptors WERE immense compared to real Velociraptors.
from Mike, age 12, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

"Actually Daniel, Spinosaurus or Giganotosaurus could stand a very good chance against T-rex. It all depends the location, and who got the first bite."

Giganotosaurus could have a slight chance if T-Rex was careless or unlucky, but Spinosaurus dosen't stand a snowball's chance in hell in presenting much of a threat to both carnivores.
from KL, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

"Actually, Chandeler, any utahraptor in its right mind would be with a pack. If 5 or 6 utahraptors can take down a T-rex, they'd have no trouble killing a smaller, weaker, frailer cousin. Also, Utahraptor was 9-10 feet tall, (and I'm going with 10 feet) so since when is 4 feet taller a "tad"?"

There is no evidence whatsoever for Utahraptors hunting in a pack. However, there is alot more evidence for Tyrannosaurids having social interaction like Albertosaurus and Tyrannosaurus, and pack-hunting is certainly more likely than in Utahraptor. In any case, even if they existed at the same time, no Utahraptor pack would go anywhere NEAR an Albertosaurus social group. One Albertosaurus was bad enough.

Well, before you go on about how effective or good large raptors like Utahraptor are, please remember that the fossil record seems to indicate that the large raptors were replaced by other predators who took their space. They simply could not compete with the new type of predators competeing with them and they simply died out, leaving the smaller raptors who did not compete with the new predators to live on. Can you guess what these new predators were?

The Tyrannosaurids.
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

"If 5 or 6 utahraptors can take down a T-rex,"

Actually, I suspect they'll have alot of difficulties trying to even make an impression on a T-rex.
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

Actaully Daniel, Giganotosaurus and Spinosaurus weren't pushovers. The problem is, T.rex played a whole different ball game that specifically attacked their weaknesses, hitting at their lower mobility, intelligence and bite force. T.rex isn't superior, he just happened to have the advantages in the critical areas. If Giganotosaurus was as agile or fast as T.rex, rex will have quite alot of problems with this dinosaur. But then again, he never was.
from Leonard, age ?, ?, ?, ?; August 1, 2001

T-rex is a lozer you should vote for um um mmm.........anyone except for stupid T-rex fatty!
from ???, age ???, ???, choclate land, la la land; August 1, 2001