It would be nice if some T-Rex fans could get their points across without having to be so nasty about it. You repell people with certain comments, which is proven in the "surrenders" of certain people and people leaving the site. Hey, if you fell the need to defend T-rex, use all the scientific evidence you want... without implying that your opponents comments are "rubbish, childish, stupid" etc.

However, if someone insults you or T-Rex, than you have a reason to say things to a certain extent. (I don't want people to think I'm trying to tell people how to write-these are just suggestions to avoid hard feelings amongst Dino Talk users).
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

"And the regulars have left for a short time."
Don't worry, I'll be here a lot in the coming days. Where's Brad by the way? He hasn't benn around for a while.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

Ugh! This will be my last post to this place because I've had it with all of these "dino-know-it-alls" who think they've got it all figured out without even having read a book in their lives! Guys, if you want to argue a point, cite a source like a book, a paper, or some other publication (websites hardly count, as anyone can post anything on the Internet). Arguing that _T. rex_ was a scavenger, _Triceratops_ was "obviously" built for speed, or that _Velociraptor_ was the smartest dinosaur of them all means nothing if you've got no evidence backing you up (and I'm not talking about quotes from popular movies, here). Too many people are letting their own biases get in the way of what might very well be the truth. So, having said that, I bid you all fairwell, and wish each and every one of you luck with your dinosaur research.
from the guy who never signs his name, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

What's your real name, da masta? If you tell me I'll tell you.(And I won't laugh)
from Diloph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

All RIGHT, da masta, we are back(means me AND Gianna)but we are not posting as much on account of the Hardcore Fans now.
from Diloph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

stupid hardcore rex fans, making up stuff just to put down raptors.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

my fav dinosaur is ceolphysis
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

Stegosaurus is my favorite dinosaur.The spikes on his back are super strong!It also has plates on his back that are either to protect or,to scare predators.Some people think it curls into a heagehog to attack.Is that true?I love Stegosaurus!Do you?
from Ismail S., age 8, Jersey City, New Jersey, America; December 29, 2001

Since I AM someone Very Wise I have something to say(since I'm giving this site ONE more chance).

I don't have to try harder, yOU have to try harder. You are disagreeing with an encyclopedia, for pete's sake, arguing with that won't get you anywhere. Face it, books know more than we do. Also, it said Deinonychus was wily. And if you say it isn't wily than you would be wrong. And encyclopedias are RIGHT, I suppose you're gonna say "Well, it's wrong" or something, but I won't believe it.
from Diloph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

Okay I'll give this site one more chance. ONE more chance.
from Diloph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

This is totally getting out of hand. Why don't we just forget about raptors?
from Maximus, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

i think sarcosuchus is a gavial not a crocodile
from dpa, age 9, den, co, usa; December 29, 2001

"Brontosaurus is not a dinosaur."
No it isn't. You're right. O.C.Marsh found some fossils he described as Apatosaurus, then found others he named Brontosaurus. They found out that the two fossils are the same and the valid name became Apatosaurus, because it was described first.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

Yes, America on average consumes the most calories in a year (I don't know about unhealthy foods...)but we do not consume the most fat.(that is France) America is the third largest country in the world by population- 283 million people live in it. So there may be more obese people in America then their are in Britain and other countries, but there are still many Americans who are not obese.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

I can't beleive how everyone is buckling under those guys...

I've been standing up for a few people out there, and all my efforts where for nothing... they've surrendered... Hey, Diloph and Gianna, come back! And Rapter, your surrender is a shame! And the regulars have left for a short time. This is a nightmare...
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

"Actually I AM someone Very Wise and...since you all hate me so much*HEY! THE OLD - TIMERS ALL LIKE YOU! I LIKE YOU! THOSE PEOPLE OUT THERE RIGHT NOW DON'T DESERVE TO BE ZOOMDINOSAURS REGULARS!* I'm leaving and never coming back.*NOOOOOOOOO!*So there. And neither is Gianna*ARGHHH! NOOOOOOOOOO!*...We'll read posts*GOOD, THEN SEE MINE!* but will NEVER post again, as of course everything I say is wrong.*NO! YOU'RE LETTING THEM GET YOU DOWN! OH GOD... HOW COME EVERYONE BUCKLES UNDER THE REX FANS... THIS CAN'T BE TRUE... I'M LIKE THE ONLY ONE LEFT STANDING! AND A LOT OF THE OLD TIMERS HAVE GONE UNTIL THINGS QUIETEN DOWN! NO WONDER THEY'RE ALWAYS THRASHING ALL OPPOSITION! NO - ONE'S STANDING UP TO THEM!*"
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

Rockeye, so you're with the Rex fans? I don't think any hardcore Rex fan right now has the right to accuse anyone of bullying or intimidation.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

The Rex fans are scavenging evidence. They keep going on about "ooh deinonychus was killed by a tenontosaur." Well, the whole pack consisted of four deinonychus, or maybe they where alone and all got there by chance. And the tenonto didn't kill any of them.

The tenontosaurus was dead,(read the post which explains how that is scientifically proven,) and of course, any predator, including a T - Rex would rather scavenge from the nearby corpse than hunt. So the deinonychus, with their excellent smell, get there first. And you can't just die of on-the-spot food poisoning, that's really stupid. They where probably killed by some event of nature, like a flash flood.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

I put the post where deinonychus is proven to beat the leopard! I forgot to put my name!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

"A pack of raptors vs. one leopard proves what? Nothing, except that raptors were so weak they needed to gang up overwhelmingly on a leopard to win (actually, they'll have a hard time just trying to catch the leopard itself*I DOUBT THAT. LEOPARDS ARE ABOUT THE SAME SPEED AS RAPTORS, AND LESS MANOUVERABLE.*). Cool, you just shot yourself in the foot, nice sucide argument there.*WHAT THE H)*& ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?* HAHAHAHA!!!!

On the other hand, one to one, a Deinonychus stands little chance against a leopard*SORRY MATE, GOT THEM THE WRONG WAY ROUND!*. A leopard is far more agile*NO, IT'S ONLY ADVANTAGE IS THAT IT CAN ESCAPE UP A TREE.* and robust*OOH, ROBUST, SO WHAT?*, not to mention it was a great deal quicker*MMM... NAH.*. Being a biting cat, leopards have dexterous paws to move themselves and the prey into position for the neck bite*IT WON'T BE ABLE TO IN TIME, BEFORE THE DEINONYCHUS RAKES IT'S FACE WITH IT'S LONG FRONT CLAWS.*. Deinonychus is out manuvered here*NO, YOU'RE HORRIBLY WRONG, DEINONYCHUS IS BY FAR MORE MANOUVERABLE, NOT THE FASTEST, BUT AS SOME REX FANS HAVE EVEN ADMITTED, IS VERY MANOUVERABLE.* and dies fast after his throat is ripped out.*IT'S THROAT DOES NOT GET RIPPED OUT!* The best he can do is a slash or a kick at the leopard, but the leopard is too agile and fast*NO, AS THE LEOPARD TRIES TO HOLD THE RAPTOR STILL TO BITE IT, THE RAPTOR DISEMBOWELS IT.*. The bipedial Deinonyc! hus lacks the dexterity and power of the hunting cat*NO, THEY HAVE EQUAL POWER AND DEINONYCHUS HAS A BIT MORE DEXTERITY.*, and its overdone sickle claws don't make up for it.*IT COULD BEAT THE LEOPARD EVEN WITHOUT IT'S "OVERDONE SICKLE CLAWS"* "
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

"To the raptor fans and their allies out there who feel the itch to tangle with the Tyrannosaurus fans:

WE WILL BURY THEM!"

No thanks to you, Gradinko, you've displayed no knowledge of dinosaurs at all. You don't even know what's going on, and you just picked the side which seems stronger. I am a T - Rex AND a Raptor fan. But at the moment I feel the need to defend the raptors.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

"FINE! JUST FINE! I SURRENDER TO T-REX NOW! HAPPY?!? NOW WILL YOU ALL JUST LEAVE DEINONYCHUS ALONE! OH YEAH, IT'S A WIMP, A LEOPARD COULD KILL IT, I FORGOT. THANKS FOR KILLING MY SPIRIT!

Now why don't we talk about T-rex."

so you gave in... that's another person down for the rex fans...
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

"now I think you all are insulting Deinonychus just to annoy me you are really making me angry."

Hey! No! That's exactly what they want! Ignore it! Use their strategy, use scientific facts to calmly back up your points. Whatever you do, don't get angry. It will be your downfall, I know that.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

"(who are the slowest and laziest people around by population)"
I hope your not serious, because that is very insulting. It's a very stereotypical view of Americans. Where do you come from?"

I know it's not a nice thought, and of course many Americans are not fat at all, but surveys in magazines etc, show that as a country, America eats more unhealthy food than other countries, and more people in America are obese than in other countries. But then, America is a very big country, isn't it?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

Oh my God it is just as I feared - Diloph AND Gianna is leaving, BECAUSE OF A LOT OF YOU!

BE ASHAMED! (IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF HAVING THIS FEELING AT ALL,) THIS SITE IS MEANT TO BE A FRIENDLY ENVIROMENT! AND YOU JUST MADE SOMEONE LEAVE! I HAVE BEEN MAD BEFORE, BUT I WOULD NEVER WANT ANYONE TO LEAVE, EVEN PEOPLE WHO DISS ME, I ALWAYS FORGIVE 'EM INSIDE ME. GOD, MY HAND IS SHAKING. YOU ARE DESTROYING THE VERY PURPOSE OF THIS FORUM, WHERE PEOPLE CAN HAVE FUN AND CHAT WITH OTHER DINO FANS ABOUT DINOSAURS...

YOU MADE SOME PEOPLE LEAVE!

JEEZ, SORRY, THERE I GO AGAIN... BLOWN UP... NOTHING ON ANY BOARDS HERE HAS EVER OFFENDED ME SO MUCH - WHEN PEOPLE DISS ME, I DON'T CARE. BUT YOU MADE SOMEONE LEAVE!!! OK, I'LL STOP NOW.

Wheeew. Hey, come back. don't go because of these guys. Anyway, I haven't seen what they dun yet. I'd better look. Please come back, I'm sure the old - timers like Tim M and Tom G won't want you to go. Hey, ignore them. Talk to me and Tim and other people who don't swarm. Oh, I haven't seen yet, I'd better have a look. Did you get swarmed?

And John & Leonard, please don't waste your time sending posts to me about this, you

1) Will never manage to annoy me
2) I will ignore them. Unless they're nicer than usual.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 29, 2001

As someone who meets up with young children, I have found it amazing how much kids learned from Jurassic Park. I always ask what one has to do so that a T. rex can't see him/her and the answer is always a resounding "STAND STILL!". All I can say is, it's a good thing T. rex isn't alive today or he'd have a lot of easy snacks.

Then I have to explain how come the raptors weren't as fast or smart as in the movie! I agree that Jurassic Park was a boon for dino-lovers everywhere, but kids look offended when I tell them something from JP was wrong!

And it looks like the same thing is happening here, abbet, in a more subtle fashion. The raptor lovers here are offended when corrected on why their JP-born ideas on raptors are quite wrong indeed. Is it me or do I sense that the most millitant raptor lovers are just after all, mainly kids who don't know better. Unfortunately, these kids are quite old indeed.
from Bill Buffalo, age 14, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Rapter, it's not so much raptor true abilities in and of itself. If that were the only, or even the most egregious, error made in the popular consciousness, I would be ecstatic. But what _I_ see is a pattern of scientific disinformation - and not just with dinosaurs - where inaccuracies and disinformation propagates itself from generation to generation. Why? Because it's too much trouble for people to be _bothered_ to be accurate, it's far easier to just coast on what's at hand. Like the person mentioned elsewhere on this page who decided that emus must be descended from velociraptor because a broken velociraptor looked sort of like an emu, we are slowly crumbling the mortar of our educational system. One incident is funny. Several is cause for concern - and some of these are epidemic in our educational so-called "system", where upwards of half the student couldn't even find the US on a globe. Worse, this same attitude is very prevalent in gov't, where non-factual "studies" and even real studies, condensed down to the point where both real data
and cautions about validity have been lost, become the basis for actual legislation.

And there just isn't a need for it, because I don't think it is at all difficult to get things _right_ in the first place. If Spielberg really _had_ to have his scene, a simple bit of throw- away dialog, as was used in the book, about the effect of the messed up DNA on raptor intelligence or speed would have been easy to include, but he, like so many others, just coasted - easier and who could tell but a
few dinosaur nuts? Indeed. But why should it be so restricted? If people walked about the outside of the starship Enterprise without space suits, _anyone_ could see that was wrong. Is that so much easier?
from Larry, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Indeed, how times have changed.

The raptors are really going down here man... what a fry cry from their glory-days.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

There have been repeated warnings against using T.rex as a springboard to achieve fame for your favorite dinosaur, but people have repeatedly ignored such warnings and gone on forward. Whenever people want their dinosaur to be popular, they have to compare it to T.rex, they can't help it, they just have to. Why? Because deep down they know that T.rex is the best, and in order to make their dino look good, they have to diss T.rex and say why their dinosaur is better. The catch is: they haven't stopped to think how T.rex actually became the world's most famous dinosaur. They just assume that T.rex will be an easy walkover to victory for them. What they fail to realize is that T.rex, unlike the raptors, Spinosaurus, or Giganotosaurus, did not become popular by hype and media. If anything, it was the media and hype about T.rex is normally negative, trying to put other dinosaurs on top. But they have failed to realize the reason why T.rex is so popular, is not because of hype or media, but because of science! T.rex was already long the most popular dino before Jurassic Park (since 1905). Unlike other dinosaurs, which are covered in hype and misinformation, T.rex maintains transparency in its true abilities. Everything about T.rex is questioned and researched. Why? Because anti-rexers like you have always wanted to knock him off with funny theories and suggestions, but through all this, and in the debating and research of all these, T.rex turned out to be stronger and cooler then ever before. Unlike the other dinosaurs, which are covered in myth and media-inspired ideas, T.rex is constantly dissed, but comes out stronger then before then ever and kills all the arguments. This is because T.rex was indeed, the coolest animal that ever lived, and when put under the crucible to test, will turn out the best. It has the backing of good, solid science. Look at this, despite years of dissing and denouncing as a scavenger, T.rex has instead turned out to be the fastest in his class, the hardest biting, and most advanced predatory dinosaur ever. All by simple research. People dun try overly hard to make T.rex look good, T.rex just shines through on its own. Compare this the now-really pitiful raptors. Once thought to be cheetah-speed, primate-intelligent, super-deadly animals, just a brief look into its true abilities indicate a much, much weaker and ordinary animal then previously thought. And the raptor fans stagger in fear and confusion over the painful truths of their over hyped dinosaur as it is being revealed - a nice sight to behold when they came in here so confident and ready to take on the world just a few days before. You see, as many before have failed to learn, please don't tangle with T.rex without reckoning his true abilities. But if you knew his true abilities in the first place, would you be here dissing him? (Explains the large numbers of paleontologists who deserted Horner's scavenger-cam! p after the discovery of the live animal attack specimen.) It's your funeral.
from Coolman, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Raptors are very smart!"

To me the important thing for paleontology, in the eyes of the public, is accurate consistant presentation of facts. Make up stories, name dinosaurs whatever suits you, present vague ideas as fact,and you wind up with a confused public. This "advancement" is the kind that takes years to correct. This is why there has been so much rubbish and vaguity over the intelligence of raptors. They have been presented in a light that puts them much, much smarter then they actually deserve.
from Roger S., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Raptors are very smart!"

Sure intertainment has its place, and the public gobbles it up, but to say these works of fiction actually contribute to paleontology is a work of fiction in and of itself. To me the important thing for paleontology, in the eyes of the public, is accurate consistant presentation of facts. Make takes years to correct. Sorry Rebecca, but the series of "Raptor are smart" ideas propagated in the media and movies and books like Raptor Red did more harm than all the "Land Before Time" and "Lion King" type products the industry could crank out in 20 years.
from Roger S., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

The size of a creature's brain relative to its body is part of the intelligence equation; another is the density of cerebral -- oh, rats,
the word just went away but someone else will provide it -- "wrinkles." It's very difficult to determine the latter because fossil casts are rarely detailed finely enough; but the size of the brain, and the sizes of its various lobes (optic, olfactory, auditory...) relative to the size of the cerebral cortex, can sometimes be reconstructed quite well. These kinds of information can suggest intelligence; estimates based on likening dinosaurs to large birds have suggested that a 'raptor might have been as intelligent as an ostrich at best, not anywhere near as smart as so many paleontologists have previously told us, about primate or wolf-style intelligence. In fact, it's good to see so many people here know the truth about the matter, that raptors were not really specially smart to have any sort of a special advantage in the area of intelligence. The sad thing is, the only people who do still seem to think raptors were "very" or "exceptionally" smart are the raptor fans themsel! ves. I guess in an over-rated and over-hyped dinosaur, the fans closest to it are bound to be the ones who know the least about them.
from etsi capularis ego vita fruar, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Many people think that raptors were scavengers...
well, you would most likely be wrong. Take a Velociraptor for example. THEY DON'T HAVE THAT HUGE CLAW ON THEIR FOOT FOR NOTHING! They were so smart in fact that they could hunt really good!"

Smartness is irrevelant to an animal's status as a predator. The crow is in fact, one of the smartest birds, but are mainly scavengers, though they can show adeptness to hunting. Face it, being smart hardly automatically makes you a hunter.

And besides, how smart really were the raptors were? Their IQ has been was overrated. While big among dinosaurs, raptor IQ was like that of a, as more informed people have been telling the numb-skulled raptor fans over and over again, ostrich! That means raptors were not cunning or smart as they like to call them at all!!!! Smart raptors? Ha, tell me, how smart can a ostrich-brain raptor be? Listen up, the more you are gonna insist raptors were "smart" and such and such, the more stupid they and you are going to look. Why? Because the fact is, raptor intelligence is really nothing much at all! Talk about making a big fuss over a small thing! Have you raptor fans lost all your common sense and logic after you saw Jurassic Park? Or did you have any to start with?
from Ostroc, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

More rubbish and party-lines from the raptor fans...

"Raptors are very smart!"

I'm sure if you actually bothered to go in depth into learning about the true abilities of raptors, you wouldn't have passed on this overused and truly dead party-line which is over used all the time. Get this: Raptors were not "smart" in any sort like you poor raptor fans would like to see it.

"Many people think that raptors were scavengers...
well, you would most likely be wrong."

And who may that be? People you made up?

"Take a Velociraptor for example. THEY DON'T HAVE THAT HUGE CLAW ON THEIR FOOT FOR NOTHING!"

The foot claw was probably there for defense, look at the cassowary bird, who also has this huge slashing claw on its foot, but hardly a predatory function. The idea of sickle claws being everything and the most potent weapon ever touted by a dinosaur is rubbish and just the party-line raptor fans keep saying to delude themselves. A well designed jaw is far more potent then any stupid slashing claw.

" They were so smart in fact that they could hunt really good!"

Sorry, your limited knowledge of raptors is apparently almost nonexistent. Raptors were only as smart as ostrichs or emus, in modern terms, I'm sorry, but an animal with ostrich or eum intelligence are stikll quite far from being "ohhhiamsosmarticanhuntreallygood" ha! Your stupid statement proves you dunno nuts about raptors. Stop buying the party line and go learn somethign will ya?

"A lot of scientists and paleontologists think that Tyrannosaurus Rex were scavengers."

This is once again, a good case of "insult T-Rex to make myself look good". But I'm sorry, it dosen't work. You could have intimidated some people back in 1996 by saying lots of scientists thing rex was a scavenger, but not now. Why? Because after the discovery of a rex attack on a live animal, scavenger theories have been put to rest throughly. The only people who think that Rex was a obgilate scavenger are like you, people who only want to hear what they want to hear. Go wake up and smell the roses man, and stop living in your fairy tale world.
from Raptor down, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Actually I AM someone Very Wise and...since you all hate me so much I'm leaving and never coming back.So there. And neither is Gianna...We'll read posts but will NEVER post again, as of course everything I say is wrong.
from Diloph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Raptors are very smart!
Many people think that raptors were scavengers...
well, you would most likely be wrong. Take a Velociraptor for example. THEY DON'T HAVE THAT HUGE CLAW ON THEIR FOOT FOR NOTHING! They were so smart in fact that they could hunt really good! A lot of scientists and paleontologists think that Tyrannosaurus Rex were scavengers.
from Rebecca L., age 10, Winona, MN, U.S.A; December 28, 2001

Brontosaurus is NOT s dinosaur. For somebody discovered it and it was missing a few bones therefore they did not know that it was actually a
Apotosaurus. Later they found out that it was the same fossilized specie.
from Rebecca L., age 10, Winona, MN, U.S.A; December 28, 2001

Re: Dromeosaurid sickle claws.
It is now believed by some that these famous claws might have been used to hold on to something, instead of being used for attacks.

I also find it hard to believe that Deinonychus was as weak and "wimpy" as some people portray it to be, despite the fact that it was not as deadly as some people portray it to be.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Again, the "coolness" is a matter of opinion. It isn't neccesarily true that the "coolness" people see in Dromeosaurids is fictitious JP myths. If someone says one Dinosaur is more "cool" than the another can anyone prove them wrong? No, because it's their opinion.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Deinonychus is not stupid."

The real Deinonychus is probably not stupid. But the animal that the Deinonychus fans so avidly describe and scream out for in their quivering, religious fervor? That Deinonyhus? That animal you have been putting forward? Now that Deinonyhus is STUPID.
from A wiser person, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Some people here disgust me. Maybe "raptors" where not so deadly, compared to tyrannosaurids and what have you, but they where very sucessful. You don't have to be dinosaur which is the toughest and the baddest to be cool or successful. The dromaesaur design worked, and many forms evolved and survived until the very late cretacious."

There is a difference between trive and survive. At the late KT, they were virtually extinct by then, hanging onto a thread after a stunning series of ousters from their ecological niches and it was just good that an asteroid came along and finished them off or else we'll be treated to a fossil record of the last dromie background extinction. The very fact here is not to say that the dromies were evolutionary whimps, but that any notion of them being the baddest and meanest predators around are obviously very false. Their bigger forms were replaced and perished in background extinctions, the only reason they survived to the late KT is not becuase they were good, but simply because they were so insignificant and small then, nobody bothered with them. They were out of a job and elking out scraps on the bottom of the ecological chain to survive. Put that next to your typical raptor fan who proclaims loudly that the raptors could kill anything and were the meanest and deadilest ev! er dinosaurs...quite a difference indeed. Let's all accept it. The raptors got their butts kicked pretty good.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

The problem with Someone Very Wise is that most of his stuff on raptors is pretty much the party line for the Mindless Raptor Fans (tm.). He didn't impress me for one bit and I'm not going to listen to him. Pity about that, he did put up quite a commendable effort to bully and bluff his way through with old, worn out lines that no longer impress nor intimidate anybody.

And BTW, Stegosaurus is the best.
from Rockeye, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"They have huge switchblade claws that inflict terrible wounds."

Actually, the claw was most probably a defense weapon, with little bearing on killing large prey. Using the limbs to slash prey does not hold well unless the prey was small. To fully cause a large wound, the raptor has to hold onto the animal itself and kick with its foot, which means it has to hang onto the large animal by itself and kick with its feet. This immediately presents large problems: 1)The raptor hands were not designed to hang onto a prey animal 2) kicking while hanging onto the animal would not be effective as the raptor would be pushing itself away from the prey rather then making a big slash. So there you have it, raptors probably didn't jump onto their prey. If they did, they couldn't do much then. They probably couldn't even hang on. It's more likely these claws were only used in last-dtch defense. The raptors were not the top of their food chain and faced larger predators too. A specialized defense structure is not unusual.

Raptor intelligence, in actual fact is a pretty dull topic. Raptors were not smart or cunning at all. The large brain size was only large in relation to other dinosaurs, but when put against modern birds and mammals, raptors were actually quite far behind. So get this into your thick head raptor fans who grate stupidly on the intelligence point: RAPTOR INTELLIGENCE WAS NO GREAT ADVANTAGE!!!!!
from Cooleh?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"They are very viscous and rather wily at that."

Wily my foot, totting Ostrich-IQ, raptors would hardly be considered willy. It would be as willy as a meat-eating ostrich, hardly wily as you would like to see it in your pitiful, fake "facts" on raptors. Wily? Harh, that's amusing. Face it, raptors were not wily in any way. Their intelligence is an overrated farce. They can't do anything much "willy". But your willy attempt as distorting the facts has failed. You see, times has changed. People no longer see raptors as the JP ultra-fast and smart animals you would like them to see. Now people want the truth on how raptors would have behaved. And the fact is, ostrich-IQed animals are hardly willy, you silly billy. Try something more orginal next time. Nobody buys that anymore. Last time you could flash raptor intelligence like some perverse trump, but sadly, people have learned the truth and are no longer afraid. Try harder for your losing raptor will ya?
from Raptor dead, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

And their backwards curving teeth are nothing special at all. Virtually all carnivorous dinosaurs had this feature. Your attempt to put this forth as some sort of special feature fails miserabily.
from Raptor down, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Deinonychus were effective predatory animals. It would not take them much time to overcome a Tenontosaurus. They have backward slanting teeth so they could grip an animal very well."

Right...taking on Tenontosaurus without problems and in little time? Apparently whoever wrote this decided to ignore the blatant fact that they lost four of their own. No problems? Sorry, you're only fooling yourself boyo.
from Raptor down, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Deinonychus were effective predatory animals. It would not take them much time to overcome a Tenontosaurus. They have backward slanting teeth so they could grip an animal very well. If a Deinonychus pack(hear, PACK)can overcome a Tenontosaur they will have absolutely no problem overcoming a leopard. They are very viscous and rather wily at that. Raptors are not weak, and whoever told you so does not know about raptors at all."

A pack of raptors vs. one leopard proves what? Nothing, except that raptors were so weak they needed to gang up overwhelmingly on a leopard to win (actually, they'll have a hard time just trying to catch the leopard itself). Cool, you just shot yourself in the foot, nice sucide argument there. HAHAHAHA!!!!

On the other hand, one to one, a Deinonychus stands little chance against a leopard. A leopard is far more agile and robust, not to mention it was a great deal quicker. Being a biting cat, leopards have dexterous paws to move themselves and the prey into position for the neck bite. Deinonychus is out manuvered here and dies fast after his throat is ripped out. The best he can do is a slash or a kick at the leopard, but the leopard is too agile and fast. The bipedial Deinonychus lacks the dexterity and power of the hunting cat, and its overdone sickle claws don't make up for it.
from Raptor down, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

To the raptor fans and their allies out there who feel the itch to tangle with the Tyrannosaurus fans:

WE WILL BURY THEM!
from Gradinko, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Raptors

Raotors were effective predatory animals, and very smart. They have huge switchblade claws that inflict terrible wounds. For this, I'm relating to Deinonychus.

Deinonychus were effective predatory animals. It would not take them much time to overcome a Tenontosaurus. They have backward slanting teeth so they could grip an animal very well. If a Deinonychus pack(hear, PACK)can overcome a Tenontosaur they will have absolutely no problem overcoming a leopard. They are very viscous and rather wily at that. Raptors are not weak, and whoever told you so does not know about raptors at all.

-Someone Very Wise.
from Someone Very Wise, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

FINE! JUST FINE! I SURRENDER TO T-REX NOW! HAPPY?!? NOW WILL YOU ALL JUST LEAVE DEINONYCHUS ALONE! OH YEAH, IT'S A WIMP, A LEOPARD COULD KILL IT, I FORGOT. THANKS FOR KILLING MY SPIRIT!

Now why don't we talk about T-rex.
from ex-rapter, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

now I think you all are insulting Deinonychus just to annoy me you are really making me angry.
from rapter, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

STUPID DEINONYCHUS????
Triceratops impale Deinonychus....now you are really being impossible, Deinonychus was extinct before Triceratops even came along, so no imaginary fights between them. and by the way Deinonychus is not stupid.
from rapter, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

rapter, the simple fact was, Deinonychus died in the attack. It dun matter how it happened. The fact they took losses speaks volumes about their talent (or lack of it) in attacking. No question about it, Deinonychus looks pretty stupid here.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

I don't find raptors having any sort of coolness at all. In fact, the way they are overrated, overplayed, overtalked and overbaked is annoying like tellytubbies, and there's nothing cool about that. People are literally bending over backwards and thinking and assuming the very best for the raptors to make them look good. That's not cool, that's stupid, like Barney. On the other hand, if you look at T-Rex, people always want to diss him, and come up with all kinds of reasons why he's bad, and he always comes out top, that's what so cool about him. At first the anti-rexers said he had weak teeth, then scientific studies indicated he had teeth strong enough to bite at the force of a dump truck. Then the anti-rexers said he was a scavenger, only to be soon refuted by evidence of rex attack on a life animal. Then they claim he was slow, only to have latest studies show he was the most gracile, and infact, the fastest 6-tonner that ever lived. And the list goes on and on. Everytime they diss T-Rex, sooner or later scientific studies will not only prove them wrong, but prove them wrong in the extreme way (like the claim he was slow and had weak teeth and it turns out he was the fastest 6-tonner that ever lived and the hardest biting animal in the world). That's instantly extremely cool and makes T-Rex undeniably cool. T-Rex has the support of good, solid science. That's why he's hard to beat and ultra-cool. Most of our ideas about raptors are mainly "feel good" ones, just to make them sound mean and great, but in actual fact, have little truth or evidence to back them up at all, making them annoying expecially when raptor fans tries to drive all these "facts" in. The notion of raptors attacking big prey or moving in packs can be easily dismantled as nothing more then overextended creative imagination that solidified into "fact". That's hardly cool, it's stupid to make up stuff and believe them as fact. Nope, raptors are not coo! l, at least not cool in the way raptor fans claim them to be.
from RANC, age ?, Raptors, Are Not, Cool; December 28, 2001

It is the reflection of the unwillingness of Raptor fanboys to laern about long-neglected "nemisis" dinosaurs that they seem to find it increasingly impossible to reach their prime objective of winning out over the T-rex fans. Is it not an embarrassment to not have sufficent knowledge of the true features of Tyrannosaurus (and insist on assumptions and falsehood cooked up by paleontologists who say what they want to hear?), let alone the little details? Had the T-rex fans displayed the same reluctance to learn about their opponents' dinosaurs, to the details, and pick out their weak points, they would have never scored up their very credible dominating victory over the raptors and other dinosaurs who dared to challange them here in this place.
from Werner R., age ?, Berlin, ?, Germany; December 28, 2001

We all know Homo sapiens sapiens are alive and well today, because me, you and all the dinosaur fans here are Homo sapiens izzit not? However it's also good to know that Homo errectus is also alive and well today, and are not extinct as previously thought... sounds incredible?

Take a look at the raptor fans.
from Leback, age 13, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

C'mon guys. lets all stop dissing raptors and forget this argument.

And I don't want any annoying posts saying that I posted this because "I know I'm losing the argument," or something like that.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

OHHHHH! A LOT OF PEOPLE ANSWERED THIS BEFORE ME! BUT NEVER MIND, SEE HOW POPULAR YOUR TRIVIA IS, T - MASTER?

"1. I am a small theropod, I ate lizards small mammals and insects, i have been found in europe, I have two claws on my front legs, but now it is possible that I have three claws, what am i?
COMPSOGNATHUS? ALL KNOWN SKELETONS (2!) ARE DAMAGED, THE ARMS ARE DAMAGED IN ALL OF THEM.
2. Sauropods are the biggest Creatures known of that lived on the earth true or false?
BIGGEST LAND ANIMALS, BUT THE RIGHT, FIN, SPERM AND BLUE WHALES ALL GROW LARGER. AND LIOPLEURODON AND BASILOSAURUS WHERE LARGER TOO.
3. About how big was Quetzacatales's wingspan?
ABOUT 12m ACROSS."
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Oh great, now I don't know which raptor to like, Utahraptor or Deinonychus.*UTAHRAPTOR IS CERTAINLY THE LARGER AND TOUGHER.* Utahraptor actually sounds cool....but if it can't jump...or can it.....
JC, do you know? aNYONE!!! I don't know who to believe.....Honkie says Utahraptor is a poor jumper*BASED ONLY ON THE ROBUSTNESS OF IT'S LIMBS, WHICH WHERE VERY POWERFULL. GRACILITY HELPS IN JUMPING, BUT IT IS NOT ESSENTIAL.*...da masta says it can*WELL, OF COURSE IT CAN! MAYBE NOT AS HIGH AS JP WOULD HAVE IT, BUT IT COULD CERTAINLY JUMP.*....WHICH PERSON IS RIGHT????????????????"
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Hey, ants are successful. Sure, everything of a decent size can kill them, and many creatures eat them, and you can squash 'em all into pulp and wreck their little nests (I'm not saying do this, in fact, don't, because it's cruel, I'm just making a point,) but ants are very successful, they live in every continent except Antarctica, there's lots of 'em, lots of different species, and they're an important animal. See?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Some people here disgust me. Maybe "raptors" where not so deadly, compared to tyrannosaurids and what have you, but they where very sucessful. You don't have to be dinosaur which is the toughest and the baddest to be cool or successful. The dromaesaur design worked, and many forms evolved and survived until the very late cretacious.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Thank you for telling me the website address JC.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

I am so behind schedule at answering people here, I think I won't be able to answer any more earlier messages. If there's something I missed and you want me to answer, you'll have to tell me. (This message is to everyone.)
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"Perhaps that is why they vanished by the mid-Cretaceous"

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Most dromaesaur finds are from the campanian - maastrichtian. One species survived until the VERY end of the cretacious, with T - Rex. They did not compete with tyrannosaurids, didn't you read my post about it?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"(who are the slowest and laziest people around by population)"
Is that why Americans have produced most of the inventions you use every day (including your computer), the books you read, the best form of government in the world? If that;s slow and lazy, I'll take slow and lazy any day.
from Chas M., age ?, Oakland, CA, USA; December 28, 2001

Obviously t-rex scavenged, but it also killed. Rex had the strongest bite force of any dino, how could a dino with such strength not kill other dinos? Of course it scavenged some times, but don't a lot of predators scavenge? If any predator came across a dead animal, it would most likely eat it.
from T-master, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"it's like casting pearls to swine."

That's about those three posts calling me a jerk. I would not compare them with pearls, rather with something brown and unpleasant. And as you ignore that as you walk past it on the street, I will ignore those posts.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Can someone neutral here PLEASE send a post with ALL the points with arguments FOR and AGAINST triceratops sprawling and being slow. Then we could analyse them and see the truth.

PLEASE, this is important. If no - -ne does this, I WILL try to myself, but I AM very pressed for time.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

Mac C, Ari B may be have got a lot his facts wrong and not really know so much about dinosaurs, compared to a lot of us here, but I would like to say that it really annoys me when someone just attacks someone else, and never says anything about dinosaurs. So in fact, at the moment, for all we know, you know nothing about dinosaurs, and Ari B has at least shown us very basic knowledge of dinosaurs.

T - Rex had excellent vision, was the largest of the three, and Spino being a piscivore had nothing to do with the sail, but at least he knows their names.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

"(who are the slowest and laziest people around by population)"
I hope your not serious, because that is very insulting. It's a very stereotypical view of Americans. Where do you come from?
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

STOP PRESS

NEW THEORY MAY INDICATE DEINONYCHUS WEAKER THEN THOUGHT!!!

In a latest suggest theory, there has been suggestion that the famous Tenontosaurus vs. Deinonychus battle fossil find, was less impressive then once thought, in fact, it was very likely that there was no battle in the first place at all.

The theory comes from the fact that despite being in close proximity and showing evidence of being fed on by Deinonychus, the fragmentary Tenontosaurus fossil showed significant signs of river errosion and decomposition in the bone structure, while that of the Deinonychus was relatively in good condition. Had the Tenontosaurus died at around the same time as the Deinonychus and had been dead for the same amount of time, the fossils themselves would be preserved in equally good condition. So there has been indication that this was no great fight in a hunt by some great predator, but that the Tenontosaurus has already been dead for quite a while and carried down a river to the Deinonychus who were scavenging off the animal. Nice, but nothing to suggest pack hunting more then the gathering of Deinonychus scavengers at a carcass.

But how do we account for the dead Deinonychus? Scientists suspect a bigger predator may have come along and killed them (though killing four would seem to be odd for a predator only seeking to chase them away), but there has been not much indication of that. More likely, it was suspected that the Tenontosaurus carcass had gone really bad, and the Deinonychus, prehaps starving and out of desperation, decided to scavenge off the putrid, stinking body, leading to almost immediate food poisoning and death. So Deinonychus were not super fierce hunters of lore, but rather, paper-fragile gut shrimps of their world who ran around in the shadow of larger carnivores.

Weak, weak dinos.

Triceratops could impale an entire pack of stupid Deinonychus like kebab on its horns.
from Triceratops rules!!!!, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

I agree Ex-Raptor Fan, Itz true, Itz true. The idea of Deinonychus swarming a large animal like Iguanadon is not only risky, but makes the Deinonychus look pretty stupid after the angry Iguanadon stamps them into the ground after they are shaken off. The idea of Deinonychus hunting large prey >1 ton is rather ridiculus indeed. It's like seeing a bunch of foxes take down a horse. Utahraptor was probably the best of the lot, but he was a fatbutt, so the raptors aren't that good after all.

No wonder you're an ex-raptor fan.
from Cool!, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 28, 2001

The raptor is a classic example of mindless American public paleontological hypocrisy in finding out the truth. The most deabsolute, fedalistic, autocratic, decadent, illusionary, brainwashed horde of fans are found in the raptor quarter. The raptor fans, and their zero-tolerance for good science and any questioning the truth behind the claims of the abilities of the raptor, is the antitithesis of everything that all dinosaur fans stand for. However by the luck of its geology, the true lack of ability and the medieval and backward ways of the raptor fans have been overlooked by the paleontological community because of over-favourable coverage in the media and movies transmitting thier raptor propangada to the unthinking masses. It exports fanatical raptorish ifeologies and sponsors militant ignorance organizations to hide the truth, and will go on doing so because the mindless masses want an insatiable thirst for excitment and dinosaurs as monsters, at the cost of their intelligence. This says a lot about raptor fans' evenhandedness and consistency - or lack of them - in their relations here. Such behaviour invites discontent, resement and doubts from friends, let alone hatred from enemies.
from Anil S., age ?, Bhopal, there is no dinosaur like Allo, India; December 28, 2001