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ZoomDinosaurs.com Dino Talk: A Dinosaur Forum: Sept. 21-25, 2001 |
As I stated in another post, since I
cannot find it I'll have to redo it:
The Utahraptor has a max. speed of 80 miles per hour, they were smart
as chimpanzees, they had groups called flocks.
The Apatosaurus has a max. speed of 11 miles per hourm they were as
smart as modern birds, they had herds.
The Tyrannosaurus Rex had a speed of 45 miles per hour, their bite
had venom simular to that of a Komodo Dragon mixed with a
Ten-Stepper
and they hunted in a group called a pride, like lions if a new male
took over the pride, he would kill and eat the cubs.
Sneaky preveiw of Dino Warz: Dinosaur Wrestling Confederation!:
Episode 5: Wrath Of The Raptors!:
Billy Macdraw: This week's fight is: Big Al the Allosaurus vs.
Deinonychus-
Alpha Male Deinonychus: Ouch.
Billy: -Utahraptor, Eoraptor, Utahraptor, and Velociraptor!!!
I hope I'll catch up with modern time!
from Alpha Male Deinonychus,
age 9,
?,
?,
?;
September 25, 2001
Opps, sorry about that, here it is
http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/jdp.htm
from ECTrex,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 25, 2001
Triceritops are cool! (and cute!!!!!!)
We're going to look for dinosaur bones and fossils when we grow
up!!
from Leah and Melanie H.,
age 10 & 8,
Shakopee,
Minnesota,
U.S.;
September 25, 2001
80 Mi/Hr??? That's way too high...
_Utahraptor_ probably couldn't run much faster than an ostrich, if
that. Not even cheetah speed.
from Chandler,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 25, 2001
Bring back the wrestling posts
pppplllleeeeeaaaassssseeeeeeee :)
from Blake,
age ?,
?, ?, ?;
September 25, 2001
Okay. JC
"By the way, have you seen the webpage of Journal of Dinosaur palentology? It has many interesting papers on
T.rex"
Nope. Please post a link.
from Brad,
age 14,
Woodville,
ON,
Canada;
September 25, 2001
Alpha Male Deinonychus:
What do you mean by "age" in your Dino Statis post?
"Tyrannosaurus imperator": Since nothing has been professionally
published on this specimen (which is probably referrable to T., rex,
not a new species), there isn't much accurate information on it. I'm
certain that no one has analyized the speed of "T. Imperator".
The type species of Velociraptor and Deinonychus are V. mongoliensis
and D. antirrhopus.
I doubt that Utahraptor ran 80 MPH. What's your evidence for that?
All of your speed estimates seem a bit high.
from Brad,
age 14,
Woodville,
ON,
Canada;
September 25, 2001
hay JC, have you ever played Deus Ex?
The main characters name is JC Denton but everyone calls him
JC.
from kyle,
age 10,
LA,
California,
USA! USA! USA! USA!;
September 25, 2001
No, I haven't. JC
what did duckbills
love.
from Romeo h,
age 8,
dallas,
74589,
Texas;
September 25, 2001
O.K., JC I can't find my post were I say
that the Tyrannosaurus Rex had venom like a snake or Komodo Dragon-
oh really my story wasn't copied- just a title simularity!
Dino Statis!:
TYRANNOSAURUS IMPERATOR:
VELOCIRAPTOR -?-
DEINONYCHUS -?-
UTAHRAPTOR:
And...
Sorry me, the almightly Raptor did not put some posts up a while
back- I got T-rex sickness!
TYRANNOSAURUS REX:
Height: 18 feet to 20 feet
Weight: 5 tons to 8
Ages: 4 - 69
Walking Speed: 10 MPH
Running Speed: 45 MPH!
Yes Robert .T. Bakker proved the T-rex ran that fast!
Height: 20 to 25 feet
Weight: 8 to 9 tons
Ages: 3 - 69
Walking Speed: 10 MPH
Running Speed: 40 MPH
(TAKE THAT DARIUS!)
Height: 2- 4 feet
Weight: 95- 150
Ages: 18 - 80 (human lifespan also!)
Walking Speed: 15 MPH
Running Speed: 50 MPH
Height: 3 to 5 feet
Weight 100 to 170
Ages: 5 - 20
Walking Speed: 25 MPH
Running Speed: 60 MPH
Height: 4 to 7 feet
Weight: 500 pounds 1 ton
Ages: 3 - 39
Walking Speed: 27 MPH
Running Speed: 70 - 80 MPH
STEGOSAURUS:
Height: 5 - 10 feet
Weight: 2 - 3 tons
Ages: 2 - 10
Walking Speed: 4 MPH
Running Speed: 25 MPH
So Darius DROP DEAD! XXXXXX!
from Alpha Male Deinonychus,
age 9,
?,
?,
?;
September 25, 2001
I've put up all the posts that came in. If it's not online, send it again. JC
hi yall
from spaceman spiff,
age 6,
kaziod,
planet x,
mars;
September 24, 2001
Thanks Honkie for the info on the
animation program. By the way, have you seen the webpage of Journal
of Dinosaur palentology? It has many interesting papers on
T.rex
from ECTrex,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 24, 2001
I think the Tricerotops is a cool Dino
Because Most of the plant eaters don't have very much defense but the
Tricerotops does.
And I like the way it was named by how many horns it
has.(Tri-Three)But does it ineract with the other dinos or is it
agenst only the meat eaters?
from Janet.G,
age 9,
Mt.sterling,
Kentucky,
United States;
September 24, 2001
Will SPINOSAURUS ever get popular as
TYRANNOSAURUS REX starting today??? I hope SPINOSAURUS will get very
popular as T-REX now.
from Dallas A,
age 16,
Omaha,
Nebraska,
United States;
September 24, 2001
Anim8or is good too for 3d animation, but
that's all it does.
from Chandler,
age ?,
?,
?, ?;
September 24, 2001
Where'd the wrestling posts
go?
from D.W.,
age ?,
?,
?, ?;
September 24, 2001
They're still at the same URL, but I got soooooo tired of them. JC
"I'm a big fan of computer animation, and
a hobbist as well. Honkie, if I may ask, what program did you use
though? 3d Studio Max and Lightwave, the biggies with Amateurists
don't have structural guides in place to ensure proper biomechanics,
so if there is a economically feasible program (I have Lightwave
myself, great for photorealistic results but isn't programmed to test
for the safety limits of structual designs of locomotion in animals)
that does I would love to hear about it! Or is this additional
scripting to one of the existing programs?? Thanks in advance for
your response"
I don't think you can buy it on the market, the program I used is
actually something of a active CAD program using the 3DS Max (which I
use for my CG graphics) engine developed by my school. In other
words, it's a non-retail home-brewed plugin But if you are looking
for commercial simulations that simulate physics-based animal
movements, I think you can find a plugin for CAD, but I'm not
sure.
from Honkie Tong,
age 17,
?,
?,
?;
September 24, 2001
"Oh, and Honkie, good comeback!"
It wasn't a comeback, there was a misunderstanding and I was just
clearing it up. I try not to be nasty to people even though they snap
at me nowadays, rather, I prefer to make sure everybody is clear and
has a clear understanding of what's going on before things go out the
window. Darius took it that the study was mine because I left out the
quotation marks to indicate I was quoting somebody, hardly his fault.
I hope everybody can be nicer to each other after what happened on
the 11th. Tiny differences of opinion should not be something that
should cause great conflict, though I would like it if people justify
their opinions, as everybody is here to learn anyway.
from Honkie Tong,
age 17,
?,
?,
?;
September 24, 2001
Great pic Brad
from ECTrex,
age ?,
?,
?, ?;
September 23, 2001
Alright Darius, we're all waiting for
those facts of yours on why and how T. Rex ran with suspensory
locomotion. Bring it on.
Oh, and Honkie, good comeback!
from Skeptic,
age 13,
Toronto,
Ontario, Canada;
September 23, 2001
My computer's been down a little while.
What the heck is going on here?
from Sauron,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 23, 2001
This T. rex topic has completely taken
over Dino Talk, so: Shuvosaurus, Shuvosaurus, Shuvosaurus! What is
it related to? Is it synonymous with Gorjirasaurus? What does it
eat? Do you like my new drawing of it? :)
from Brad,
age 14,
Woodville,
ON,
Canada;
September 23, 2001
raptors ROCK!!!!
from azraptor_2000,
age 12,
glendale,
arizona,
U.S.A.;
September 23, 2001
T-Rex vrs. Spinosaurus...no contest.The
most powerful jaws of any terresrial animal that ever lived vrs. a
fish-eater.No dinosaur would dare to challenge T-Rex,even if they did
live during the same time period.With his "Komodo-dragon"serrations
which grows deadly bacteria, The odor of T-Rex would scream out
DEATH! Giganotosaurus, Charcarodontosaurus,or Megaraptor would all
avoid T-Rex for fear of his deadly nastey mouth.
from Toby N,
age 52,
Fernandina Beach,
Florida,
U.S.A.;
September 23, 2001
In the North woods of N.America,there are some very capable preditors such as the cougar,the lynx,the fox,and
the wolf.The grizley bear, however,is more often a scavenger.He has a
keen scense of smell and will locate a kill and then take it by
force,even from a large pack of wolves.Tyrannosaurus Rex hunted in
the same way.Even though he was a scavenger,he was never-the-less
KING of his turf.And,like the grizley,T-Rex was very capable of
killing.I agree that such a heavy piped was a walker-( not a runner
)-I do not agree that his little arms made him vulnerable to
falls.There were once large flightless birds who were capable
predators.I believe that T-Rex was a scavenger who hunted dead
meat,yet who loved a good fight.His teeth were serrated like those of
the Komodo dragon,to hold dead tissue and grow deadly bacteria.His
bite was powerful and also deadly poisonous.This would also give him
a strong odor,making it still more difficult to hunt.T-Rex was
a slow walker with a strong odor...but a very capable scavenger.All
said and done,Tyrannosaurus Rex is still King of the
Dinosaurs.
from Toby N,
age 52,
Fernandina Beach,
Florida,
U.S.A.;
September 23, 2001
"But in case you are wondering, I did
produce my own animation models to double check what she was doing."
Now this has peaked my interest, since I'm a big fan of computer
animation, and a hobbist as well. Honkie, if I may ask, what program
did you use though? 3d Studio Max and Lightwave, the biggies with
Amateurists don't have structural guides in place to ensure proper
biomechanics, so if there is a economically feasible program (I have
Lightwave myself, great for photorealistic results but isn't
programmed to test for the safety limits of structual designs of
locomotion in animals) that does I would love to hear about it! Or is
this additional scripting to one of the existing programs?? Thanks in
advance for your response
from ECTrex,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 23, 2001
-A disgrunted member of the audience.
I'm not really a big dino fan until a lously movie called JP3, and I
don't really care about whathisname T.Rex, but I have been following
this debate for some time now and can tell you that somebody called
Darius here has to get off his high horse.
I mean, this person's behaviour nauseates the bystander reading this
debate. For goodness sake, nobody gives two hoots about IF you are
believing in whatever you are believing in (some mumbo jumbo about
two feet off the ground), people want to know WHY you believe in what
you believe. Nobody really cares about you, they just care about why
you hold that opinion, seesh, stop answering like some
religious-secluded-in-the-mountain guru, whoes only answer is
"Ommmmmm...you have not convinced me, I hold my belief...Ommmmmm..."
Who really cares about what you believe in? They just want to know
WHY you do so and so they can judge your opinion for themselves, they
don't need you to keep saying "You have not convinced me, you have
not convinced me." Common...seesh...get off your high horse...
If you are too lazy or proud or have no desire to explain why you
think T.Rex could fly with both feet off the ground or whatever, you
could at least show the common courtesy and withdraw from this
debate, rather than go on an on about how strong your faith is and
how devoted you are the the cause, go fly a airliner into a building
for all I care. This is a debate, hello? D.E.B.A.T.E, you have to
present your point of view, nobody cares if you hold that point of
view, they are only interested in what are your reasons. Look at that
Horner loser, he just keeps going on an on about how his opinions are
not changed, who cares? Nobody man, they juz wanna see the facts for
themselves and find out. Maybe if you have good reasons to believe in
whatever you believe in, I'm sure the dudes on the other side would
conceed too, but you have not done that so far. What you have done so
far is to do the first-grader equivalent of bursting into tears,
sticking your fingers into your earsand singing "I cannot hear you, I cannot hear you, you are wrong and I am
right" sorry, I don't think you are like that but that's the
impression you are giving. In where I live, we have one word to call
these people, and that's "Stuck up". If our foreign policy was so
stuck up, it would almost be understandable why people get dissed
enough to drive our planes into our buildings. Thank goodness its
not.
And for goodness sake, dispense with all the character assasinations,
forging alliances, calling people nice and such. Nobody cares if you
think Honkie is nice or if you like him, please stop the politics and
get down to the science and the facts. Everybody is sick of your
behaviour in this matter. I'm not saying you are wrong or you are
right, and frankly, I don't care. All I want to see is an actual
scientific debate dealing with facts, not politics going on in here,
hello? I'd like to slap some sense into you but dung splatters.
Hmph...
from Marty M.,
age .,
Cheyenne,
Wyoming,
USA;
September 23, 2001
It was so cool when Spinosaurus killed
Tyrannosaurus Rex in JP///! Spinosaurus was like the main charactor.
I'm studying dinosaurs in school. I just got into reading this
dinosaur talk page. Hokie Tong, your so cool!
from Rich P,
age 8,
?,
?,
?;
September 23, 2001
"Hmm...are you sure this was YOUR study Honkie? It seems like I've read this before...this looks awfully
familiar to Dr. Nancy Nicholson's arguments at: "
Now I see the problem you are not falting my entire argument but
rather the Nicholson part in my latest post. You see, I forgot to
insert the quotation marks when I quoted Nicholson, accidentally
causing you to see it as if I had done the study. But your URL seems
to be indicating a different version of her study though. Your
version lacks mention of the arctometatarsalian condition and seems
to be structured more towards a horse-rider centric audience. My
version stems from an online dino magazine and it's apparent that
she, or perhaps the person who co-wrote the article added in some
terms to make it better understood to a dinosaur-centric audience (at
least, that's my theory behind the differing versions). I hope this
clears up any confusion. But frankly, I'd wish you'd stop jumping
into conclusions. In any case, I stand by the article (and a couple
of other sources). Perhaps it would benefit you to see my entire term
report (yes, this is my study) on Tyrannosaurus locomotion to understand what is going on... just don't pass this up as your
homework or something:
Ka Fong Fransis Ong Su Ka,
Jan 25, 2001
Objective: The student must employ resources and evidence and make a
balanced and scientific conclusion into the topic. Computer animation
using the IK engine must be included to prove the biomechanical model
derived in the conclusion. Marks will be awarded for an accurate and
detailed model.
The biomechanical implications of forces in Tyrannosaurus rex
movement, a report on the probable locomotion method of large late
Cretaceous Theropoda.
The speed and agility of dinosaurs is still a contentious issue,
particularly when it comes to extremely large dinosaurs. Speed and
agility is relatively simple to determine with the smaller members of
dinosaurian by extrapolating from modern day animals similar to their
size, but the speed and agility estimation in the larger species is
much harder to estimate, for no good example exists today to
extrapolate from. This study focuses mainly on the movement of
Tyrannosaurus rex, and employs biomechanical models to model the most
likely locomotion mode for this animal.
The actual speed of Tyrannosaurus rex itself has been one of the most
contentious and hotly-debated in paleontological history, possibly
because the speed of Tyrannosaurus would play a pivotal role in
determining if it was a hunter or a scavenger, a topic that has been
debated even more hotly until recently, where the discovery of
healed-over tail vertebrae of an Edmontosaurus that escaped attack
from a Tyrannosaurus settled it mostly. However, the exact speed of
Tyrannosaurus remains extremely contentious.
In determining the exact nature of a how Tyrannosaurus moved, certain
aspects and approaches have to be watched out and compensated for
based on the actual physical abilities of the animal. For example,
one hardly thinks a Tyrannosaurus could have moved on all fours! The
aspects and approaches that had to be watched out for, based on
biomechanical justification are explained below:
Over simplistic extrapolation: It wouldn't be sensible to simply
extrapolate the speed of the animal going by simple size. Biologists
have long recognized that very large animals are more limited in
their athletic abilities compared to their smaller relatives. However
in larger animals like Tyrannosaurus, this becomes even more crucial.
As of such, the movement mode of Tyrannosaurus could have still
brought the same dividends in speed, but the method, or way in which
he done in would have been quite different.
Lack of good living models: The largest closest land-based animal for
us to get a handle on how extremely large animals responded to the
forces acted on them as they move is the elephant. But an elephant is
hardly an appropriate model for Tyrannosaurus, as one can tell that
they both moved in very different ways. On the other hand, though
ostriches and running birds provide a closer look into the mechanics
of Tyrannosaur movement, they ignore the much larger forces that
applied to a much bigger animal like Tyrannosaurus. Extrapolation and
observation from modern animals goes about as far, most of the
experimenting on Tyrannosaurus movement would be straight from the
drawing board, based on biomechanical models.
Unique locomotion method: It's entirely possible that Tyrannosaurus
moved in a way that has no good modern equivalent. This possibility
must be accounted for and discovered in the biomechanical models used
to determine Tyrannosaurus speed or movement mode.
As one can see, determining Tyrannosaurus speed is no simple matter.
To start off in determining how Tyrannosaurus rex could have moved,
one has to start off with the known facts about its locomotion; they
are gathered as of below:
1. Although Tyrannosaurus shared a great deal of locomotion
similarities to birds living today, there are significant differences
in the position of the big toe, foot posture and hind limb movement.
However, one can expect that Tyrannosaurus would have moved much like
a walking bird.
2. The morphological paradigm indicates Tyrannosaurus skeletal
structure was similar to that of some modern cursors (animals that
are good runners, like horses and ostriches): long legs, digitigrade
stance, and other features. However, their locomotory features are
not as specialized as those of many of the faster extant runners, as
these animals had to deal with massive weights and forces, much more
than our modern cursors, which would have more limited their
cursorial abilities.
3. Tyrannosaurus lacked a flexible ribcage, which was sensible for an
animal of its weight. Tyrannosaurus had a heavily reinforced, rigid
ribcage that would have played a part in preventing it from achieving
certain movement methods we are familiar with in other animals today,
which include flexible spines and ribcages in their locomotion
method. Tyrannosaurus was better adapted to move fast in a walking
gait rather than in a running gait.
4. Speed specializations have been noted in Tyrannosaurus. Tom Holtz
noted a curious condition in the foot of advanced theropods known as
the arctometatarsalian pes of the metatarsus, a peculiar arrangement
of the metatarsals in tyrannosaurids, ornithomimids and various other
theropod dinosaurs from the late Cretaceous of Asia and North
America. The biomechanical treatment of these structures indicated
that Tyrannosaurus would have moved, proportionally, more
energy-efficiency and faster than animals with primitive limbs
missing the structure. Other specializations include extremely
gracile limbs and a smaller, lighter foot.
Based on this, one assumes Tyrannosaurus is most likely a cursorial
animal, though the exact method that Tyrannosaurus used to run has
not been derived. Biomechanical implications do apply strongly to
limiting how Tyrannosaurus could have moved. The limits are as
follows:
1.) Bone strength factor. It's almost immediately apparent that
Tyrannosaurus did not include severe impacts in its locomotion
method. The strength factor of Tyrannosaurus and large theropod limb
bones are noted to quite far below that of modern day gallopers and
runners. As of such, it is most likely the locomotion method of
Tyrannosaurus did employ avoid sudden high-rate loadings on the bone.
This would have limited any suspensory capabilities, as would be
explained later.
2.) Body loading factor. The rest of the body of Tyrannosaurus
besides the limbs would also be subject to the forces derived from
its locomotion method. According to scientists, running in a
suspension could be impossible to perform for Tyrannosaurus without
adversely affecting the other parts from the body.
Quote
"At the University of California, Berkeley, paleontologist John
Hutchinson has begun building computer models of Tyrannosaurus rex's
muscles and bones to rule out certain postures that, like a building
with faulty architecture, simply wouldn't have stood the test of
time.
"Biologists have long recognized that very large animals are more
limited in their athletic abilities compared to their smaller
relatives," says Hutchinson. "I suspect that this pattern holds for
the largest extinct dinosaurs as well. My models estimate the mass of
hindlimb muscles that would be needed for any dinosaur to support the
stresses of running. In other words, would it even be possible to fit
enough muscle onto the skeleton to prevent the animal from collapsing
during running?"
Hutchinson concludes that the other areas of Tyrannosaurus anatomy
would be severely affected by vertical acceleration affected by a
up-and-down suspension mode of running, so much so he calculates for
a Tyrannosaurus to run effectively in suspension, it must invoke so
much vertical accelerations in its entire 6-ton frame that the frame
itself would not be able to take the strain.
Other limits in Tyrannosaurus movement methods have also been noted,
Dr Nancy Nicholson did apply biomechanics to Tyrannosaurus movement.
But in her report, which is being quoted from an article on the
Dinosaurs Online, also gives some insight into how Tyrannosaurus may
have moved.
Quote
3.) Fall effects. Being extremely large, falling even while standing
still would prove to have serious consequences towards Tyrannosaurus
or any large animal for that matter. Naturally, this effect also
carries on into movement. Paleontologist James Farlow and colleagues
came up with a paper describing the possible effects of Tyrannosaurus
falling during a run at high speed.
Quote (second source report)
Animation of Tyrannosaurus moving:
Other notes: By moving in non-suspension, the center of gravity of
Tyrannosaurus is extremely stable, making a risk of a fall extremely
low or negligible at all. It is entirely possible, based on this
model; Tyrannosaurus would have been able to move at speeds beyond
Farlow's limit and still retaining a great potential to avoid
falling, or recover quickly in the matter its balance is
disrupted.
P203994
Class 1B24,
"The Great One, a tyrannosaur in a run, Gregory Paul estimates that
the animal could run about as fast as a racehorse, which would be
about 14 to 17 meters per second. His argument for a speedy carnosaur
of the 6 to 12 ton persuasion is that its hind limb is similar to
that of a horse and an ostrich, both of which are fast. In my
biomechnical study, I used animation and simulation models to inspect
the way these animals moved.
The animal I studied is based on an articulated skeleton of a 6 ton
animal and is accurately proportioned. Its stride is 26 feet long
without any suspension. Suspension for a 12,000 pound animal involves
horrendous impacts beyond the strength factor of the Tyrannosaur
limb, even for an inch or two off the ground, which is way below the
elevation a Tyrannosaur would need to run in suspension (that is,
with both limbs off the ground). In other words, it impossible for
Tyrannosaurus to run with both feet off the ground.
However, Tyrannosaurus was certainly not slow. He was designed to
move extremely fast without suspension. The animal moved in such a
way that its digitigrade stride (runs on tip toe) gave it a
"slingshot" effect slightly up and forward off the middle of the
stance phase of the planted leg. That way, the animal stays level as
the swing phase leg comes forward and is placed on the ground. As the
animal sinks its mass onto the new leg, its ligaments, tendons and
muscles store potential energy to release in the new stride just
after the balance point of the stance phase. The powerful upper limb
of the Tyrannosaur coupled with the arctometatarsalian condition and
small foot of the Tyrannosaur, allowed it to swing its limbs much
faster and more energy-efficently to repeat this process faster and
as a result, increases its speed too, all without suspension.
Horses are also digitigrade runners. One major difference in the hind
leg assembly of a horse (aside from the obvious single hoofed toe) is
the top of the thighbone (femur). There is a projection off the top
(greater trochanter) which gives the horse a mechanical advantage as
the medial gluteal contracts to help torque the leg in the stance
phase. If the hind leg pushes the horse forward 4 feet (1.22 meters)
and there is 40% of 1100 pounds (440 lbs or 200 kg) being moved, then
this is 1760 pound-force feet (2.39 kiloNewton meters).
The tyrannosaur has a very different thigh bone. Its top is
elaborated into two tabs which increase its bearing surface for
ligaments to strap it onto the pelvis, a dandy idea in a 6 ton
animal. Thus it lacks one of the important adaptations of a horse for
suspensory speed. R. MacNeill Alexander rates the tyrannosaur femur
"strength indicator" at 9, and this is less than half of animals like
Cape buffalo and horses. The torque computation for a tyrannosaur leg
moving a 6 ton (5,454.5 kg) animal 25 feet (7.62 meters) is 300,000
pound-force feet (406.7 kiloNewton meters). It's hard to contemplate
such an animal going suspensory in a run, much less not incurring
immediate injury to its limbs! Especially at 25-30 miles per hour!
A horse differs from a Tyrannosaur because it has four limbs for
locomotion combined with an extraordinarily elastic, responsive rib
cage. The tyrannosaur's rib cage is a rigid box, reinforced by
sternal ribs (not shown in the movie to show the legs more clearly).
Thus the conversion of potential to kinetic energy of the stride has
to be mostly in the achilles tendon, gastrocnemius muscle and gluteal
muscle system. On balance, a tyrannosaur would probably not have been
as fast as a race horse but would have been faster at a run than a
human or an elephant, or just about all of its prey items."
This has proved extremely useful in determining how Tyrannosaurus
could have indeed, moved. However, this proves almost out of the
question, that moving in suspension would have been impossible for
Tyrannosaurus to implement physically.
" … Farlow and his coworkers went on to examine the running
potential for this T. rex. First they analysed the strength of the
leg bones with the help of computer-aided tomography (CT scans). The
results, based on comparisons of their one T. rex with modern
examples of both running animals and heavy animals, were inconclusive
but suggest the legs of T. rex were considerably weaker than those of
a White Rhino (Ceratotherium simum) which is the largest living
animal that can gallop. This begs the question: were the legs of T.
rex strong enough to allow it to move at speeds approaching a
reasonable gallop?
Next, Farlow and fellow researchers turned their attention to some
theoretical constraints on galloping for a 6,000kg T. rex .
Specifically, they were interested in the forces that would be
exerted on the body of such an animal if it were to fall while moving
at speeds of 10 metres per second or the higher speed of 20 metres
per second.
The forces could be broken into two components, a vertical force and
a horizontal force. The vertical force would be the same regardless
of the speed at which the animal was travelling. Because T. rex had
puny arms that would not effectively break the fall, the forces were
calculated as direct drops of the mass of the torso and the head from
their respective heights. The torso, falling 1.46 metres, would
experience an impact force of approximately 260,000 newtons and a
deceleration of around 6g while the head, falling 3.46 metres would
impact with a force of 99,000 newtons and a deceleration of 14g. This
should have been enough to do considerable damage to the skull and
rupture vital internal organs.
Things only get worse for T. rex when it starts moving and, the
faster it moves, the worse it gets. The horizontal component of
forces during an impact are more difficult to calculate and require
such grizzly factors as the "skid distance" and a "friction
coefficient". If the T. rex was running at 20 metres per second
(72kmh) and skidded 3 metres on impact, the torso would experience a
horizontal force of 300,000 newtons or 7g. The resulting net force of
both the horizontal and vertical vectors would run out to 400,000
newtons or 9g for the torso and 110,000 newtons or 16g for the head.
At 7g, a fighter pilot blacks out. At 16g his head would pop open.
Tyrannosaurus rex could avoid these lethal forces by not travelling
at such high speeds but even at half that speed (10 metres per second
or 36kmh) the risk of serious injury from a fall would still be very
high. There is another benefit from going slower; the slower the
animal travelled, the better the chance of being able to recover from
a stumble before impacting with the ground.
So Farlow and his colleagues conclude that, even if T. rex could run
at speeds of 72kmh (which seems unlikely from the strength of the leg
bones), doing so could easily result in a lethal fall. They concluded
that it was more likely for T. rex to occasionally reach the
relatively low speed of around 10 metres per second (36kmh) but even
then, only for short bursts over clear ground where the chances of a
fall would be reduced…"
Despite the rather sarcastic, rhetorical tone of the mentioned
report, Farlow does have a valid point in Tyrannosaurus (or any other
large dinosaur for that matter) suffering dire consequences from a
fall at high speed. However, latest studies into Tyrannosaurus
movement has indicated that Tyrannosaurus avoided this problem
altogether by moving in a different way.
Conclusion
Based on all the factors considered above, it is most likely that
Tyrannosaurus was almost certainly capable of moving at speed. But
the locomotion method for Tyrannosaurus derived from the
biomechanical effects on the body and limbs indicates that suspensory
locomotion was impossible for the animal, and rather, the animal
moved without going into suspension. Given the considerably more
gracile limbs and energy efficient adaptations noted by Holtz,
Tyrannosaurus seemed to be adapted to a style of taking large steps
fast, rather than going into suspension, more in the style of moving
as noted in Nicholson model is the most plausible. With such a
method, it is noted that Tyrannosaurus rex could move at a great
rate, possibly even beyond the limit imposed by Farlow as the
stresses induced in this mode of movement is less drastic and
concentrated and dissipated vertically along the shaft of the limb
and the shock absorbing material present within. It can also be noted
that the main body of Tyrannosaurus underwent limited and non-drastic
accelerations in its locomotion mode as it moved to avoid serious
biological implications, as the animation model below shows.
from Honkie Tong,
age 17,
?,
?,
?;
September 23, 2001
"Decide for yourself. Are Honkie's
arguements his own, or modified versions of someone else's?"
Before you jump in with all guns blazing, I never claimed these
arguments are my own, (in fact, the post you appear to have a serious
problem with is actually based my report on the webpage's arguments)
but rather, and I did say that I based my arguments strongly on a
biomechnics webpage that was extremely helpful in coming out with my
report but was unable to locate as of now (The webpage you qouted
wasn't the one, but apparently the one I got my information from also
used her report.). As a matter of fact, you have proved extremely
helpful in helping me locate it, I'll note the URL. And I have not
"hijacked" the post to twist it against whatever it meant, as you
might have suggested, for it still claims that suspensory motion was
impossible. Rather, I have also inserted other sources (mainly from
Tom Holtz's arctometatarsalian notes) to complement the post as
supporting evidence. I hope you understand. If you are asking if I
base my belief that Tyrannosaurus could not run in suspension was based on this, I'd say certainly yes. But would you
so kindly oblige me why you think her arguments are flawed (which I
think are very convincing)?
But in case you are wondering, I did produce my own animation models
to double check what she was doing.
from Honkie Tong,
age 17,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
By the way, this is an awesome pic of a
T.rex,
http://dinosauricon.com/images/tyrannosaurus_rex-ms.html
from ECTrex,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
Besides, I'm not entirely comfortable
with ruling out behaviour simply because it's not observed in modern
day animals. It's kinda like saying no large animal today is capable
of moving on all fours normally, and later using only two for a burst
of speed, a special form of locomotion dinosaurs like the Hardosaurs
used, therefore Hardosaurs did not employ such behaviour.
Hmm, I'm not sure if that was slammed at me, but I'll address this,
since it does sound like it was directed at me. True dinosaurs were
extremely different at least structurally from what we know today,
but in the end, they were animals, not fantastic creatures of myth.
And while the point of no large animal using that locomotion is true,
there are two examples of smaller animals that employee it(and many
more larger animals that rear up on their haunches) so that
hypothesis of locomotion is not out of the realm of possiblity by
modern standards (at least I only know of two, two types of lizards,
when I remember the names, I'll post them). And for Darius, I would
be interested in reading Dr. Nancy Nicholoson's arguements but the
link is not active, and the url not up, do you have an updated one to
refer me to? Thanks in advance for any help in this
matter.
from ECTrex,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
Where are the counter
points?
from Thunderbird,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
http://members.gotnet.net/maier/Dinosaurs/Tyrannosaurus.html
Wow. That's a great T. rex!
from Brad,
age 14,
Woodville,
ON,
Canada;
September 22, 2001
"Wanna know why? They hunt animals so
much larger than them, and they have a totally different way of
hunting than Tyrannosaur. They bite and back off, not to let their
prey bleed to death, but let the bacteria in their saliva do their
work. In a few weeks, the animal is dead from infection, not loss of
blood. "
I don't know as much about Tyrannosaurus than some of the
virtually-qualified paleontologists here, but I can tell that the
apparent "facts" I have qouted above on Komodo dragons are certainly
very wrong. Actually, the septic bite is used more of a backup
measure in Komodo dragons, they actually bite their prey once or
tiwce and then hang back to let it bleed out or fall to the ground,
after which the Komodo would close in and finish it off. Unless the
prey managed to escape, the septic bite would not play too much of a
role in bringing down the prey. Though your understanding of a septic
bite (or Komodo dragons) seems wanting, for you stated it tooks weeks
to kill, in actual fact, the animal normally dies within seventy four
hours. Cases of twenty four hours have been observed before, but
certainly not weeks and weeks! Honkie does have a strong point going
here.
"If this is all speculation, why are my views so wrong? I can draw
sensible conclusions from bones just as much as you, seeing as it's
all speculation."
>From what I've seen so far, you are not drawing sensible conclusions
from the bones anywhere near as much as your opponents. There's a
difference between good and bad speculation. A good speculation is
based strongly on logic and fact, has null intergity, with a good
emasure of evidence to support it. A bad speculation employs faulty
arguments, poor logic, and has little evidence to support or treats
the evidence extremely badly. As I've read through the posts here, I
have to point out that a great deal of your arguments are I'm afraid,
extremely weak compaired to the ones your opponents are employing.
I'm afraid they're hardly sensible at all. In that case, even
somebody who knows nothing about dinosaurs would point out
immediately your points are extremely weak indeed. For example, your
"sensible" arguments almost always start out on faulty facts and poor
anthologies. It's apparent your knowledge on the modern animals you
draw your agruments from are very wanting indeed. Almost every one of your arguments involves factual errors and general
lack of know how on the matter itself, and one dosen't have to be a
genius to know if you are starting on bad information, you'll end up
with bad arguments. It's apparent that you would be better off
learning from your opponents, rather than arguing them (particularly
Honkie, are you suree he's not a paleontologist or biologist of some
sort?), whom are all extremely well versed and almost certainly more
knowledgable than you, not to mention they actually know how to
debate, rather than blindly push their points forward with reckless
disregard for science. I don't want to make it any clearer, but even
I, who is an unbiased outsider to this debate can tell immediately
that your case is very, very weak and certainly inferior to the case
your opponents have built.
from Larson P.,
age 14,
Ok. city,
Ok.,
USA;
September 22, 2001
http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Biomechfizziks2.htm
Actually, I'd like to point out that I'd seen Dr. Nicholson's webpage
long before I started posting here. I've discounted her arguements
though, as they are flawed as I will point out in my upcoming post.
I am also sad to say that I will now ignore Honkie, as I have seen
that one of his arguements is not his own, a shame since I rather
liked him (I've been reading posts here since the days of BBD). Good
day.
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
Actually, I'd like to point out that I'd seen Dr. Nicholson's webpage long before I started posting here. I've discounted her arguements though, as they are flawed as I will point out in my upcoming post. I am also sad to say that I will now ignore Honkie, as I have seen that one of his arguements is not his own, a shame since I rather liked him (I've been reading posts here since the days of BBD). Good day.
http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Biomechfizziks2.html
Decide for yourself. Are Honkie's arguements his own, or modified
versions of someone else's?
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
"Wake up Darius! Why hasn't anything
convinced you yet! I mean, I use to think like yu but I'm convinved
now too! This debate between you and skeptic has turned from being
convincing one person to think otherwise to who's riht and who's
wrong. Your wrong, but you're just to proud to admit that you've lost
so you say "I'm still not convinced." Does everyone have to draw a
picture. I mean, I think everyone should have their when thoughts but
this is going too far. You're going to have t admit your wrong sooner
or later. you realise that you're the one dragging on this debate by
saying you're not convinced. No one can realy convince you, but they
can prove you wrong, and that's what skeptic and honkie have done all
along."
First off, how can I been proven wrong, when I haven't even presented
the reasons I believe what I do? Up til now I have merely posted
counter-statements, not really COUNTER-POINTS. I felt no need to
explain myself, as I was solely satisified with keeping it to myself.
Oh well. Second, I'm not dragging on the debate, as I merely state
that I disagree with some of what's said here. I'm not trying to
convince anyone. It is they who keep trying to convince ME of my
WRONGNESS. I don't really care if anyone else believes me, I can
just present my view, and if needed be explain myself as I will
later. Thirdly, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. When I
am thoroughly convinced that I am wrong, I will admit so. Thus far,
I do not feel this way, and so, have not admitted such. Thank
you.
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
"The Great One, a tyrannosaur in a run,
Gregory Paul estimates that the animal could run about as fast as a
racehorse, which would be about 14 to 17 meters per second. His
argument for a speedy carnosaur of the 6 to 12 ton persuasion is that
its hind limb is similar to that of a horse and an ostrich, both of
which are fast. In my biomechnical study, I used animation and
simulation models to inspect the way these animals moved.
The animal I studied is based on an articulated skeleton of a 6 ton
animal and is accurately proportioned. Its stride is 26 feet long
without any suspension. Suspension for a 12,000 pound animal involves
horrendous impacts beyond the strength factor of the Tyrannosaur
limb, even for an inch or two off the ground, which is way below the
elevation a Tyrannosaur would need to run in suspension (that is,
with both limbs off the ground). In other words, it impossible for
Tyrannosaurus to run with both feet off the ground.
However, Tyrannosaurus was certainly not slow. He was designed to
move extremely fast without suspension. The animal moved in such a
way that its digitigrade stride (runs on tip toe) gave it a
"slingshot" effect slightly up and forward off the middle of the
stance phase of the planted leg. That way, the animal stays level as
the swing phase leg comes forward and is placed on the ground. As the
animal sinks its mass onto the new leg, its ligaments, tendons and
muscles store potential energy to release in the new stride just
after the balance point of the stance phase. The powerful upper limb
of the Tyrannosaur coupled with the arctometatarsalian condition and
small foot of the Tyrannosaur, allowed it to swing its limbs much
faster and more energy-efficently to repeat this process faster and
as a result, increases its speed too, all without suspension.
Horses are also digitigrade runners. One major difference in the hind
leg assembly of a horse (aside from the obvious single hoofed toe) is
the top of the thighbone (femur). There is a projection off the top
(greater trochanter) which gives the horse a mechanical advantage as
the medial gluteal contracts to help torque the leg in the stance
phase. If the hind leg pushes the horse forward 4 feet (1.22 meters)
and there is 40% of 1100 pounds (440 lbs or 200 kg) being moved, then
this is 1760 pound-force feet (2.39 kiloNewton meters).
The tyrannosaur has a very different thigh bone. Its top is
elaborated into two tabs which increase its bearing surface for
ligaments to strap it onto the pelvis, a dandy idea in a 6 ton
animal. Thus it lacks one of the important adaptations of a horse for
suspensory speed. R. MacNeill Alexander rates the tyrannosaur femur
"strength indicator" at 9, and this is less than half of animals like
Cape buffalo and horses. The torque computation for a tyrannosaur leg
moving a 6 ton (5,454.5 kg) animal 25 feet (7.62 meters) is 300,000
pound-force feet (406.7 kiloNewton meters). It's hard to contemplate
such an animal going suspensory in a run, much less not incurring
immediate injury to its limbs! Especially at 25-30 miles per hour!
A horse differs from a Tyrannosaur because it has four limbs for
locomotion combined with an extraordinarily elastic, responsive rib
cage. The tyrannosaur's rib cage is a rigid box, reinforced by
sternal ribs (not shown in the movie to show the legs more clearly).
Thus the conversion of potential to kinetic energy of the stride has
to be mostly in the achilles tendon, gastrocnemius muscle and gluteal
muscle system. On balance, a tyrannosaur would probably not have been
as fast as a race horse but would have been faster at a run than a
human or an elephant, or just about all of its prey items."
Hmm...are you sure this was YOUR study Honkie? It seems like I've
read this before...this looks awfully familiar to Dr. Nancy
Nicholoson's arguements at:
http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Biomechfizziks2.html
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
"Yes, I am incredibly interested in why
your reasons for Tyrannosaurus being capable of running in
suspension, for I have compelling reasons to believe this is
physically impossible without harming the animal's health."
Okay...be patient though, I'm a slow typer, and I gotta alot to type
now.
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
Tyrannosaur had a strong boned, well
muscled neck because he had such a huge head.
"But I don't see why a Tyrannosaur couldn't have employed this tatic,
given the massive amount of damage it could do with a single solid
connection,"
I didn't say that he did.
"Komodo dragons and montior lizards show a bite and stand-off
behaviour when it comes to hunting."
Wanna know why? They hunt animals so much larger than them, and they
have a totally different way of hunting than Tyrannosaur. They bite
and back off, not to let their prey bleed to death, but let the
bacteria in their saliva do their work. In a few weeks, the animal is
dead from infection, not loss of blood.
"So much about the behaviours of these animals cannot be determined
from bones, so this is all speculation, really."
If this is all speculation, why are my views so wrong? I can draw
sensible conclusions from bones just as much as you, seeing as it's
all speculation.
from ?,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
"Well, putting it that way, do you wish
for me to elaborate on why I believe Tyrannosaurus rex could "run?"
Just give me the word, and I'll happily oblige. The only reason why I
haven't posted it thus far, is simply because I'm lazy =P."
Yes, I am incredibly interested in why your reasons for Tyrannosaurus
being capable of running in suspension, for I have compelling reasons
to believe this is physically impossible without harming the animal's
health.
The main problem I do have with Tyrannosaurus running with both feet
off the ground was simply because it was impossible to do. The main
problem with Tyrannosaurus moving with both legs off the ground in
suspension is the impacts and the way the force is applied not
vertically along the shaft of the bone, generating a great due of
torque at the wrong areas.
The Great One, a tyrannosaur in a run, Gregory Paul estimates that
the animal could run about as fast as a racehorse, which would be
about 14 to 17 meters per second. His argument for a speedy carnosaur
of the 6 to 12 ton persuasion is that its hind limb is similar to
that of a horse and an ostrich, both of which are fast. In my
biomechnical study, I used animation and simulation models to inspect
the way these animals moved.
The animal I studied is based on an articulated skeleton of a 6 ton
animal and is accurately proportioned. Its stride is 26 feet long
without any suspension. Suspension for a 12,000 pound animal involves
horrendous impacts beyond the strength factor of the Tyrannosaur
limb, even for an inch or two off the ground, which is way below the
elevation a Tyrannosaur would need to run in suspension (that is,
with both limbs off the ground). In other words, it impossible for
Tyrannosaurus to run with both feet off the ground.
However, Tyrannosaurus was certainly not slow. He was designed to
move extremely fast without suspension. The animal moved in such a
way that its digitigrade stride (runs on tip toe) gave it a
"slingshot" effect slightly up and forward off the middle of the
stance phase of the planted leg. That way, the animal stays level as
the swing phase leg comes forward and is placed on the ground. As the
animal sinks its mass onto the new leg, its ligaments, tendons and
muscles store potential energy to release in the new stride just
after the balance point of the stance phase. The powerful upper limb
of the Tyrannosaur coupled with the arctometatarsalian condition and
small foot of the Tyrannosaur, allowed it to swing its limbs much
faster and more energy-efficently to repeat this process faster and
as a result, increases its speed too, all without suspension.
Horses are also digitigrade runners. One major difference in the hind
leg assembly of a horse (aside from the obvious single hoofed toe) is
the top of the thighbone (femur). There is a projection off the top
(greater trochanter) which gives the horse a mechanical advantage as
the medial gluteal contracts to help torque the leg in the stance
phase. If the hind leg pushes the horse forward 4 feet (1.22 meters)
and there is 40% of 1100 pounds (440 lbs or 200 kg) being moved, then
this is 1760 pound-force feet (2.39 kiloNewton meters).
The tyrannosaur has a very different thigh bone. Its top is
elaborated into two tabs which increase its bearing surface for
ligaments to strap it onto the pelvis, a dandy idea in a 6 ton
animal. Thus it lacks one of the important adaptations of a horse for
suspensory speed. R. MacNeill Alexander rates the tyrannosaur femur
"strength indicator" at 9, and this is less than half of animals like
Cape buffalo and horses. The torque computation for a tyrannosaur leg
moving a 6 ton (5,454.5 kg) animal 25 feet (7.62 meters) is 300,000
pound-force feet (406.7 kiloNewton meters). It's hard to contemplate
such an animal going suspensory in a run, much less not incurring
immediate injury to its limbs! Especially at 25-30 miles per hour!
A horse differs from a Tyrannosaur because it has four limbs for
locomotion combined with an extraordinarily elastic, responsive rib
cage. The tyrannosaur's rib cage is a rigid box, reinforced by
sternal ribs (not shown in the movie to show the legs more clearly).
Thus the conversion of potential to kinetic energy of the stride has
to be mostly in the achilles tendon, gastrocnemius muscle and gluteal
muscle system. On balance, a tyrannosaur would probably not have been
as fast as a race horse but would have been faster at a run than a
human or an elephant, or just about all of its prey
items.
from Honkie Tong,
age 17,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
I finally saw _Allosaurus: WWD Special_
(I bought the video), and I loved it! The salt lake scene with the
diplodocids is great. The second part contains some really funny
scenes, like Big Al playing soccer with some kids. But are they
certain that "Big Al" is a male allosaur?
from Brad,
age 14,
Woodville,
ON,
Canada;
September 22, 2001
"So far no argument has been presented to me that has convinced me otherwise of my currently held belief."
Wake up Darius! Why hasn't anything convinced you yet! I mean, I use
to think like yu but I'm convinved now too! This debate between you
and skeptic has turned from being convincing one person to think
otherwise to who's riht and who's wrong. Your wrong, but you're just
to proud to admit that you've lost so you say "I'm still not
convinced." Does everyone have to draw a picture. I mean, I think
everyone should have their when thoughts but this is going too far.
You're going to have t admit your wrong sooner or later. you realise
that you're the one dragging on this debate by saying you're not
convinced. No one can realy convince you, but they can prove you
wrong, and that's what skeptic and honkie have done all
along.
from Thunderbird,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
"I think that you totally mis-interpreted
my previous post. I imagined that the tyrannosaur "sprint walks" as
you say, up to the triceratops but fails to deliver the attack, and
it continued on it's forward course, as skeptic said it would already
have been moving at top "sprintwalk" speed. As the tyrannosaurus does
this, it moves past the angry triceratops, whom alters it's course,
and into the lunges at the tyrannosaurs rear and brushes by. Ouch
x2."
Oh, is that your image between a fight between a triceratops and a
tyrannosaur gone bad? Well, it's simple then. What did you mean by
"failed to deliver his attack"? Was it that T. Rex tried biting and
missed, or was it that T. Rex didn't try biting? If you meant that T.
Rex tried biting and missed, this is highly unlikely. He had good
articulation of his muscular and powerful neck, and he certainly
would have positioned himself close enough to the triceratops while
moving to get a good bite on the back. If you meant that he didn't
try biting, I find that just as unlikely. Let's keep in mind that
he's hunting here. If he was too far away fron the triceratops at
this point to bite (which probably wouldn't happen. T. Rex was
stalking prey and had time to position himself properly), then the
triceratops wouldn't have been able to get him with the horns when T.
Rex passed him by). Another thing. After missing an attack, I think
that the tyrannsosaur would have tried turning to the
direction oposite of the triceratops than to run right infront of
those powerful horns of the grazing herbivore. Anyway, many people
would agree that had he been lucky enough to survive an attack, the
triceratops might attempt to flee before resorting to it's horns,
unless it was defnding it's young.
"Blah, blah, blah, 3.66 metres, blah, blah, 2.2 metres, blah, 45
degree angle. All this information just to describe what one person
could type in six to eight sentences."
Wow, is this the best argument you can muster against my scenario?
When I read this I was surprised how weak it was. This doesn't
counter anything I said. I mean, Darius, come on, I expected
soemthing better from you, possibly one of the best debaters on this
board.
And no, I wasn't describing how much one could type in 6 to 8
sentences. I was describing why I thought you were wrong.
"Where is the stride figure coming from? and is this figure
indicating "sprint walk" or galloping movement?"
The information was recovered from a trackway, and I located it in
afew books and on the internet. The information was probably sprint
walk, becasue galloping would have probably not have shown up on a
trackway. What I did in my scenario, though, was have triceratops
capable of one stride per second, which at 2.2 metres per stride
would be how fast I think he could gallop when trying to scare off a
tyrannosaur.
"And I'm still against yours:)"
Good for you. Nice to know that.
"So far no argument has been prescented by anyone that has convinced
me other wise of my currently held beliefs."
I think Honkies right here. Honkie, you took the words right out of
my mouth!
"I suppose running does increase the chances of tripping while
turning, but from personal experience I've never tripped while
turning."
yes, turning while running does increase the chances of tripping,
even though it still won't happen automatically."
from Skeptic,
age 13,
Toronto,
Ontario,
Canada;
September 22, 2001
It didn't matter if an Allosaurus was
bigger than T-Rex, which they're not, T-Rex was super-advanced and
could kill them all.
from John,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 22, 2001
"There comes to a point where one crosses
the fine line between holding to ones beliefs because he knows he has
a rational reason in it and holding to ones beliefs simply because
it's nicer to see things that way."
Well, putting it that way, do you wish for me to elaborate on why I
believe Tyrannosaurus rex could "run?" Just give me the word, and
I'll happily oblige. The only reason why I haven't posted it thus
far, is simply because I'm lazy =P.
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
"Not really, I just wanted to justify my
agruments by putting out the calculations for everyone to see.
Tyrannosaurus limbs could not resist the torque generated by running
with both feet off the ground, as of such, he did not employ such a
method of locomotion. He didn't run with both of his feet off the
ground, not because it increased his chances of tripping, but simply
because he was physically incapable of such a task."
Actually, I was not really directing that statement at you Honkie. I
rather like you.
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
"Finally Allosaur was much smarter than
T-Rex, it had to be most of the creatures it nted were much bigger
then him."
You couldn't be further off the mark. Tyrannosaurids were extremely
advanced dinosaurs, and all of them had extremely developed brains
for a dinosaur. A Tyrannosaurus actually beats an Allosaurus in the
area of neurology by more than a ratio of 1:2, and that's not
counting the lobe used for smell, which was immenese. Tyrannosaurus
would be in any case much, much smarter than your Allosaurus.
"Hey everyone, in light of the recent T-Rex discussions, I decided to
conduct some observations. I have been observing a duck, and it
doesn't seem to run with both feet off of the ground, despite having
a longer shin bone. Instead, it seems to almost slide across the
ground, barely lifting either foot. Yet and still, this is a very
fast means of transportation. If this duck was blown up to the scale
of a T-Rex, I don't think it would be too crazy to say that it could
easily outrun me, and maybe achieve speeds anywhere from 20 MPH and
up. (The fastest humans can only get up to 18 MPH.))"
I don't think a duck is a good model to base Tyrannosaur movement on
at all, for your Tyrannosaur was certainyl far more gracile and
nimble than your 6-ton duck! But if you want to put it that way, that
Tyrannosaurus had no problem moving fast, that's correct.
"Where is this 2.2m stride figure for triceratops coming from? And is
this figure indicating a walking, "sprintwalking," or galloping
movement?"
I've no idea, but one thing for certain, we have good reason to
suspect Triceratops could not gallop or even charge a Tyrannosaurus!
Triceratops would have been able to change facing extremely fast
though, making it extremely difficult to attack.
"Wow, its amazing to see how much information one spews out in order
to convince another of how wrong his or her views are. Even down to
the angle of attack! Amusing, but futile."
Not really, I just wanted to justify my agruments by putting out the
calculations for everyone to see. Tyrannosaurus limbs could not
resist the torque generated by running with both feet off the ground,
as of such, he did not employ such a method of locomotion. He didn't
run with both of his feet off the ground, not because it increased
his chances of tripping, but simply because he was physically
incapable of such a task.
"So far, no arguement presented by anyone has convinced me otherwise
of my currently held beliefs."
There comes to a point where one crosses the fine line between
holding to ones beliefs because he knows he has a rational reason in
it and holding to ones beliefs simply because it's nicer to see
things that way.
from Honkie Tong,
age 17,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
"I am sorry to say that T-Rex is not very
fast. It mostly scavenged meat..." I am sorry to say, Blake H., that
many of the things you said are wrong. First of all, what evidence do
you have that suggest that T-Rex was a scavenger. Have you not been
reading all the debates on this site. T-Rex had such powerful killing
tool in its jaws. It had a rod-like tail to balance it when it ran.
And it could run fast. It could achieve near the top speed of an
average human just by walking. There's much other evidence to how
fast T-Rex was but all you need to do is look at the posts of other
people. An Edmontosaurus bone was found broken by a T-Rex bite, and
then healed. Would a dead Edmontosaurus heal? I'M not saying that
T-Rex never scavenged, but I am saying that it hunted. T-Rex was more
bird like than spinosaurus, because T-Rex was a Coelurosaur, and
Spinosaurus was, well, a Spinosaur. Since T-Rex is so closely related
to birds, this is more evidence that is was fast. DIMETRODON LIVE IN THE PERMIAN PERIOD, NOT THE TRIASSIC.
It was not closely related to Spinosaurus. T-Rex was the smartest
large carnivore, not Allosaurus. And NO! Allosaurus did not grow much
bigger than T-rex. Individual Allosaurs may have grown bigger than
T-Rex.(emphasis on the word MAY)Thank you.
from Tim M.,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
Hey everyone, in light of the recent
T-Rex discussions, I decided to conduct some observations. I have
been observing a duck, and it doesn't seem to run with both feet off
of the ground, despite having a longer shin bone. Instead, it seems
to almost slide across the ground, barely lifting either foot. Yet
and still, this is a very fast means of transportation. If this duck
was blown up to the scale of a T-Rex, I don't think it would be too
crazy to say that it could easily outrun me, and maybe achieve speeds
anywhere from 20 MPH and up. (The fastest humans can only get up to
18 MPH.))
from Usen,
age 20,
?,
?,
USA;
September 21, 2001
Hey everyone, in light of the recent
T-Rex discussions, I decided to conduct some observations. I have
been observing a duck, and it doesn't seem to run with both feet off
of the ground, despite having a longer shin bone. Instead, it seems
to almost slide across the ground, barely lifting either foot. Yet
and still, this is a very fast means of transportation. If this duck
was blown up to the scale of a T-Rex, I don't think it would be too
crazy to say that it could easily outrun me, and maybe achieve speeds
anywhere from 20 MPH and up. (The fastest humans can only get up to
18 MPH.))
from Usen,
age 20,
?,
?,
USA;
September 21, 2001
Hey everyone, in light of the recent
T-Rex discussions, I decided to conduct some observations. I have
been observing a duck, and it doesn't seem to run with both feet off
of the ground, despite having a longer shin bone. Instead, it seems
to almost slide across the ground, barely lifting either foot. Yet
and still, this is a very fast means of transportation. If this duck
was blown up to the scale of a T-Rex, I don't think it would be too
crazy to say that it could easily outrun me, and maybe achieve speeds
anywhere from 20 MPH and up. (The fastest humans can only get up to
18 MPH.))
from Usen,
age 20,
?,
?,
USA;
September 21, 2001
"I'm still against your idea. "
And I'm still against yours =).
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
So far, no arguement presented by anyone has convinced me otherwise of my currently held
beliefs.
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
"Turning while running with feet off the
ground certainly had increased his chances of tripping."
I suppose running does increase the chances of tripping while
turning, but from personal experience, I've never tripped while
running and turning.
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
"I'm sorry but the only way that's
possible is if the T. Rex slowed down. Here's why. Before attempting
an attack, the T. Rex would be a relatively safe distance from the
triceratops. Suddenly, he starts moving, gainy approximately 3.66
metres to 4.27 metres per stride (which is between 12-14 feet). He is
quickly approaching the triceratops, mouth open, preparing for a
lethal bite. He moves in, and is just afew metres short now when the
triceratops notices him. The triceratops moves forward to attack the
tyrannosaur. There are now two things which can happen here. 1. The
triceratops tries chasing the tyrannosaur, but becasue he can only
manage 2.2 metres per stride (which is a little over half the
Tyrannosaurs stride), the Tyrannosaur easily gets away. 2. The second
possiblity is that the triceratops lunges forward. This is the only
way in which he has the faster acceleration than the tyrannosaur. Of
course, this primary lunge would only be perhaps
a little longer if not equal to the ceratopsians stride of 2.2 m.
Now, the time the ceratopsian realised a tyrannosaur approaching, was
perhaps when the tyrannosaur was approximately 10 metres away (any
closer without the triceratops noticing and T. Rex would have gotten
his bite in. Triceratops could have tried swiveling at that time, but
T. Rex would have managed to articulate his neck in an appropriate
manner to get at the ceratopsians back while moving to the side. He
was surely capable of this due to his muscular and powerful neck).
The ceratopsian starts to turn around but T. Rex changes course by 45
degrees (T. REx would not have been able to change course too
abrutly. Lets say it took triceratops about perhaps three seconds to
turn around and prepare to lunge. With an alteration of 45 degrees,
the tyrannosaur, in those two seconds, would have been capable of
making two strides, each worth an average of 3.965 metres. That means
he's moved roughly 6m away from the triceratops before the lunge. Now let's say that the triceratops achieves
about 2.3 m in the lunge in the first second. It would take two
strides in two seconds to reach T. Rex from 6 metres away (it' only
two strides when you factor in the front end of the triceratops
including the horns). In those two seconds, though, T. Rex, at one
stride per second, manages to gain 7.93 metres ahead of the point
triceratops was at after two strait lunges. Had triceratops attempted
to change his trajectory at, he'd only be able to change about 22.5
degrees without losing too much time before T. Rex got away. T. Rex
notices triceratops quickly changing position and turns 22.5 degrees
himself to avoid it. Now the two are almost parallel to one another.
The Tyrannosaur, with the greater stride, would eventually get away."
Blah, blah, blah, 3.66 metres, blah, blah, 2.2 metres, blah, 45º
angle, blah, blah. All that information just to describe what one
could type in six to eight lines.
I think you totally misinterpreted my previous post. I imagined that
the tyrannosaur "sprintwalks" as you say, up to the triceratops and
but fails to deliver the attack, and it continued on its foward
course, as Skeptic said it would already have been moving at top
"sprintwalk" speed. As the tyrannosaur does this, it moves past the
now angry triceratops, whom alters its course, and lunges into the
tyrannosaur's rear as it brushes by. Ouch x2.
Where is this 2.2m stride figure for triceratops coming from? And is
this figure indicating a walking, "sprintwalking," or galloping
movement?
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
Wow, its amazing to see how much
information one spews out in order to convince another of how wrong
his or her views are. Even down to the angle of attack! Amusing,
but futile.
from Darius,
age ?,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
I am sorry to say but T-rex was not very
fast. He mostly scavanged for meat, even though he would somtime eat
injured dinosaurs. Spinosaur did not need his sail to survive becaus
he was an advanced carnosaure and was more bird like than reptile you
probably got him confused with dimetradon who lived during the
Tirasic and was a primative reptile/mamal like. Spinosaure relly
couldn't kill T-rex because he was a weaker carnovore. Most of the
really good meat eaters were small bird-like dinosaurs like my
favorite the velociraptor, witch was one of the most susecfull
because it was both intelligent and had a milatary-like life style
revolving around an alpha. Finally Allosaur was much smarter than
T-Rex, it had to be most of the creatures it nted were much bigger
then him.
from Blake H,
age 13,
Newton,
Iowa,
USA;
September 21, 2001
I ABSOLUTLEY LOVE DINOSAURS I WANT TO SEE THEM EVERY DAY THEY ARE SO COOL AT FIRST I THOUGHT A T-REX WAS GOING TO BE A HUGE MONGO 30 FOOT DINOSAUR BUT WHEN I READ ABOUT IT IN ZOOM DINOSAURS I FOUND OUT I WAS WRONG REALLY WRONG I HOPE EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD LIKES DINOSAURS AND VISITS ZOOM DINOSAURS IT WILL TELL YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT DINOSAURS AND EVEN ABOUT OTHER THINGS SO IF THERE IS ANYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT DINOSAURS OR ANYTHING MAKE SURE YOU GO TO ZOOM DINOSAURS THERE IS STUFF FOR ALL AGES EVEN MY LITTLE BROTHER FINDS STUFF TO DO ON THIS SITE AND I NEVER CAME FASINATED IN DINOSAURS UNTIL I HEARD ABOUT ZOOM DINOSUARS FROM A FRIEND NOW I TRY TO VISIT THIS SITE EVERY SINGLE DAY SO DO MY FRIENDS I HAVE THEM COME OVER AND GET ON THIS SITE I LOVE IT
ABBY A. AGE 10
from Abby A,
age 10,
Muncie,
Indiana,
United States;
September 21, 2001
"Wow, you just agreed with me that T. Rex
could run. Thank you. And I don't think that T. Rex would need to
turn around he'd just slow down until the tyrannosaur ran ahead as I
stated above."
I'm sorry, but no, I didn't mean to agree. By running I meant his
fast walking style of movement, not moving with feet of the ground. I
made that error becasue I was in a rush. I'm still against your idea.
"Yes, the T-Rex keeps moving, suddenly the triceratops lunges
forward, right into the T. Rex's rump. Outch."
I'm sorry but the only way that's possible is if the T. Rex slowed
down. Here's why. Before attempting an attack, the T. Rex would be a
relatively safe distance from the triceratops. Suddenly, he starts
moving, gainy approximately 3.66 metres to 4.27 metres per stride
(which is between 12-14 feet). He is quickly approaching the
triceratops, mouth open, preparing for a lethal bite. He moves in,
and is just afew metres short now when the triceratops notices him.
The triceratops moves forward to attack the tyrannosaur. There are
now two things which can happen here. 1. The triceratops tries
chasing the tyrannosaur, but becasue he can only manage 2.2 metres
per stride (which is a little over half the Tyrannosaurs stride), the
Tyrannosaur easily gets away. 2. The second possiblity is that the
triceratops lunges forward. This is the only way in which he has the
faster acceleration than the tyrannosaur. Of course, this primary
lunge would only be perhaps a little longer if not equal
to the ceratopsians stride of 2.2 m. Now, the time the ceratopsian
realised a tyrannosaur approaching, was perhaps when the tyrannosaur
was approximately 10 metres away (any closer without the triceratops
noticing and T. Rex would have gotten his bite in. Triceratops could
have tried swiveling at that time, but T. Rex would have managed to
articulate his neck in an appropriate manner to get at the
ceratopsians back while moving to the side. He was surely capable of
this due to his muscular and powerful neck). The ceratopsian starts
to turn around but T. Rex changes course by 45 degrees (T. REx would
not have been able to change course too abrutly. Lets say it took
triceratops about perhaps three seconds to turn around and prepare to
lunge. With an alteration of 45 degrees, the tyrannosaur, in those
two seconds, would have been capable of making two strides, each
worth an average of 3.965 metres. That means he's moved roughly 6m
away from the triceratops before the lunge. Now let's say that the triceratops achieves about 2.3 m in the lunge in
the first second. It would take two strides in two seconds to reach
T. Rex from 6 metres away (it' only two strides when you factor in
the front end of the triceratops including the horns). In those two
seconds, though, T. Rex, at one stride per second, manages to gain
7.93 metres ahead of the point triceratops was at after two strait
lunges. Had triceratops attempted to change his trajectory at, he'd
only be able to change about 22.5 degrees without losing too much
time before T. Rex got away. T. Rex notices triceratops quickly
changing position and turns 22.5 degrees himself to avoid it. Now
the two are almost parallel to one another. The Tyrannosaur, with the
greater stride, would eventually get away.
"Umm..I stil fail to see why as soon as the T-Rex started to jog
that he would automatically trip."
As I said before, he wouldn't. But in your scenario where he's moving
with feet off the ground to get at the triceratops, and the
triceratops notices him, T. rex would have to make a turn so the
ceratopsian doesn't jab him in the stomach. Turning while running
with feet off the ground certainly had increased his chances of
tripping. While he might get lucky and leave unscathed, there's still
no reason to move that fast when he doesn't have to. Personally I
wouldn't be taking risks like that when there's the possibiltiy that
a 10ft. tall 30ft. long creature ramming it's three foot long horns
into me. i'd rather stick to the safer way when I can still get away
safely.
from Skeptic,
age 13,
Toronto,
Ontario,
Canada;
September 21, 2001
"We are talking about Tyrannosaur, not
today's predators. If the Tyrannosaur was so fierce, the competition
would definitely be violent. They seem to show little reserve when
fighting each other. There is also no evidence they hunted together,
and had pecking orders if they did."
I don't have a problem with Tyrannosaurus being antisocially social.
That meant, they were social animals that were very violent when it
came to social affairs. Indeed, there have been evidence that T.rexes
did band together in groups (in fact, we have more evidence for
Tyrannosaurids going in packs then we do for raptors), and that
didn't seem to stop them from bashing the heck out of one another,
and in some cases, even killing and eating each other. Must be a very
fierce and nasty pecking order they have running around. Mean
hunters, mean and colourful social life... Kinda reminds me of the
social order of parrie dogs, who live a life of urban violence in
their parrie dog towns...
from Honkie Tong,
age 17,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
"I believe our little sea friends
(sharks) would have something to say something about that. Do you see
sharks taking a bite, then backing off to let the prey bleed to
death? Why does everyone seem to think if an animal has that kind of
teeth, it therefore must be an animal that takes one bite and backs
off, bleeding its victim? Lions and other predators don't seem to
show this behavior."
Komodo dragons and montior lizards show a bite and stand-off
behaviour when it comes to hunting. But I don't see why a Tyrannosaur
couldn't have employed this tatic, given the massive amount of damage
it could do with a single solid connection, a wait-out tatic would be
extremely useful (the prey isn't going to be ccapable of staging an
escape or live for long, given the damage). Besides, I'm not entirely
comfortable with ruling out behaviour simply because it's not
observed in modern day animals. It's kinda like saying no large
animal today is capable of moving on all fours normally, and later
using only two for a burst of speed, a special form of locomotion
dinosaurs like the Hardosaurs used, therefore Hardosaurs did not
employ such behaviour.
I'm not entirely certain a Tyrannosaur needed to use the
bite-and-wait tatic all the time. With dangerous prey like
Triceratops, he well might have employed this tatic, but against his
more common hardosaur prey, he was certainly capable of killing his
prey almost immediately (or at least put them well on the way to his
dinner plate) with a solid connection to almost anywhere on their
bodies.
"Umm, I still fail to see why t-rex would suddenly trip as soon as it
"jogged."
Hmm...T.rex would not have tripped when he jogged, but the leg bones
of Tyrannosaurus were best designed to absorb vertical impacts along
the shaft, which is associated with his rapid-walk running method (In
fact, Tyrannosaurids have massive amounts of shock absorbing material
to absorb vertical impacts). To the contray, if he did decide to run
in a suspensory locomotion mode, not only would it have not made him
any faster, it would have introduced a new force called torque. At
12,000-14,000 pounds or weight factored with gravitional acceleration
times distance to obtain the torque acting on the leg bone diagonally
when he was running with both feet off the ground, his leg would
simply break under the forces. In that case, I assume he would trip
then, but that's besides the point. Of course this applied to all the
other large animals in his habitat too (even Triceratops). They all
could not run with both (or four) feet off the ground. In any case,
as I said, this is immaterial for Tyrannosaurus was more than fast enough to catch anything considered of food to them.
However, Triceratops would not have been able to charge or chase a
Tyrannosaurus though. Closest research into Triceratops and co.
indicate that their speed figures have been incredibly inflated (in
part no thanks to Bakker). Their sprawing forelimbs would have
prevented the necessary articulation and power to allow them to keep
a rate, but would have allowed them to stand very firm and change
facing extremely fast- good defense against a large predator. But
they had no hope of ever catching or chasing down a Tyrannosaur on
the hoof. It's likely even an Ankylosaurus could have edged out a
Triceratops in a race.
"If the challenger uses its superior sprintwalk speed, the old rex
would simply launch into a jog and bring down the upstart. Thus, to
escape the older rex, the challenger would have to run as well."
Actually it would depend on who is the faster walker. Both parties
would not have been able to "jog" and at their sizes, limb
proportions, and biomechnical treatments of thier feet, jogging would
not only have been impossible, but also afforded no advantage in
speed at all.
"I certainly hope you aren't including 'raptors in that. They had
longer arms, and were obviously more agile than Tyrannosaur."
Heh heh, I believe I was refering to the large predators above the
three ton range.
from Honkie Tong,
age 17,
?,
?,
?;
September 21, 2001
We are talking about Tyrannosaur, not
today's predators. If the Tyrannosaur was so fierce, the competition
would definitely be violent. They seem to show little reserve when
fighting each other. There is also no evidence they hunted together,
and had pecking orders if they did.
The Tyrannosaur is an animal Jason. Even Dr. Horner stated the rules
of scavenging would apply to the Cretacious just as it does today.
And every species when ever it comes together establishes a hierachy,
even if its an imprompt one. Look at sharks, as a prime example. The
14 foot great white is king of the sea until it comes across 20
footer, and will back down immediately. And in any event, I think
your purposely missing the point here, and its getting tiresome,
truthfully. The whole point of it is there would be no need to wait
and wait for an animal to be hunted by others, or die of natural
causes when it had the capablity to take down its on prey. So much
about the behaviours of these animals cannot be determined from
bones, so this is all speculation, really. Now on to more interesting
subject for me, do any of you know of more amateur
artwork(preferablely 3d) of dinosaurs on the web? Its great to see
the different artistic visions of these extinct animals
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